Int.: Ok so we’ll just start off with where were you born and where you grew up?

ATW: Ok so I’m a bit of a, I don’t know whether Scousers would agree but I’m a bit of an honorary Scouser, because I’ve only been in Liverpool 16 years, so I was actually born in Birmingham.

Int.: You say only 16 years, that’s still… 

ATW: Yeah it’s still quite a long time yeah, yeah, yeah… so this is my home now, pretty much, but I was born in Birmingham, grew up in Birmingham/Wolverhampton/around the Midlands pretty much and moved around a little bit all over the place but yeah, it was mostly the West Midlands where I first came out and started my life, yeah my queer life.

Int.: Yeah so, when did you sort of realise that you were queer? 

ATW: Erm... really early age, I think. [Long pause] It’s a weird thing realising you were queer because people told me. I knew I was different. 

Int.: Yeah

ATW: From the boys a little bit because I used to have much more fun hanging around with the girls and the teachers used to say, y’know, erm, “Why aren’t you playing football with the boys, go and play football with the boys” and like me my girlfriends would like fall out and have little bitchy, y’know,… nobody was speaking to me for a while and nobody was speaking to her for a while and I used to go “Why is everybody so horrible?” and the teachers used to go “Go and play with the boys they’re not like that” and I was going “I don’t like them they make me kick footballs around, I hate it” and then people said ‘Oh you’re a, erm…” [Pause] I remember saying, somebody saying,.. I knew the word tomboy existed for girls and it was almost like ah she’s a tomboy, she’s a tomboy and that felt like a good positive thing somehow, but when I said “So, if a girl is more interested in playing with the boys, she’s called a tomboy, so if a boy is more interesting playing with the girls, what,…what’s that called?” And people went “Gay”. 

Int.: Yeah.

ATW.: And so, I went I’m gay, then. So, at the age of about 7-8 something like that, I think I told the teacher I was gay. I remember once that in primary school that a teacher called Mrs. Bevers*, she was an old hippy, she was lovely, she made me Kate Bush mix tapes and things like that and we did dance routines and all sorts of things… anyway… so she once erm, she was doing the register and she said “Adrian, Adrian, Adrian” and then once she went “Can I call you Ade?” and I went [tut] “Yeah alright” and I hated being called Ade really but I liked the teacher so I said yeah and then I had this little thing and I went “Mrs Bevers?”* and she went “Yes Adrian “and I said “Did I ever tell you I wanted to be a girl?” and she said “No you didn’t Adrian.” and I went “Well I do, so will you now call me Adriana?”  and she said, “I won’t call you Adriana.” [laughs] And that was it but I didn’t really want to be a girl I  was just more interested in the things that the girls got to do rather than the boys so, yeah, they were sort of a dawning realisation and it wasn’t until I was maybe 12 or 13 when bullying really kicking in and y’know, people said “oh you puff” “You’re gay” “You’re whatever” as a derogatory term and things and then it started feeling like well actually they are saying that with malice. Whereas I claimed it because I much preferred playing with the girls and things, but then it became like I realised that they were bullying me with it, so… I think it was then when I realised what gay actually meant, [pause] In terms of sexuality and things when I was about 13-14 and then denied it, and everybody went “Are you gay Adrian?” “Are you gay?” Even my best girl friends came up and girls came up and sat next to me in art and went “Adrian, If you’re gay you can tell us, it will be absolutely fine” and I had not an ounce of trust for anybody and I didn’t come out then until I was 18 and I’d left school, I was at college but as soon as I was at college I was a full-fledged goth, makeup and all sorts of things, dressing up, loads of different images and things of you know different styles and images, I was never one thing I used to experiment with different styles and looks and I came out pretty much straight away, by the end of my first year, I think, I properly came out but yeah so it was a…. 

Int.: So, at what point did you feel that you could come out to your parents and family or did you ever?

ATW: Well yeah by the time I came out at college, I came out to college friends first and I actually tested the waters a few times and I went “Do you know anybody who is gay?” and like I think we talked about EastEnders storylines, this was like late 80’s – early 90’s and I said erm “Oh well so and so is gay blah, blah, blah and what do you think of gay people” and people were like “I think they’re disgusting” and these were people at fashion college as well, girls like going “I think it’s terrible” so I was like really scared then and then a couple of other people in my year came out, or the year below me, had come out and then it became a bit of a competition to see who was also coming out and I knew this guy called Eddie* had come out and then a girl called Cheryl*, they were sort of best friends and I was sort of mates with them and they came out to their Mum’s and then I’d come out at this point to school friends and I just went that’s it I’ve got to do it and everyone went “Do it tonight, do it tonight, do it tonight” so yeah and then I told my Mum and then my family all just knew straight away, apart from my favourite cousin I gave her a phone call and told her and she went “Yeah whatever, yeah we knew that anyway” Y’know, It was like a lot of, not all, but a lot of coming out stories are a bit like, yeah we knew. So my boyfriend only just came out to his parents properly even though they have known for years, so he just came out a couple of weeks ago at his Nan’s funeral and stuff and they were going “Yeah we knew for ages” but they got really excited and his Dad just said to him “I’m so pleased because now when people ask I will just say ‘Yes my son is gay’.’’ [Laugh] And he was really excited about being able to say that to people, whereas they’d known that until Greg* had come out to them or said it himself, they couldn’t, they had to speculate and leave everybody speculating. 

Int.: Yeah. 

ATW: I think it was a bit of an avalanche, once I’d come out to people at college and I’d told my Mum and Dad, I was just out and that’s it. It was never really an ongoing thing but yeah there’s that little - a lot of people say they are having to constantly come out, different work colleagues and things but it’s different I suppose because I work in the arts as well it’s just known, pretty much, and then I’ll refer to my Husband or my ex-Husband and my Boyfriend or whatever and everybody just goes yeah whatever. 

But around the ages of 18-19 there was a bit of an avalanche of a rush to tell everybody because there was that little bit of a competition to see who could come out first, I think. 

Int.: Did you have any safe spaces when you were younger that you felt that you could be yourself? 

ATW: [Pause] Home. Pretty Much. I mean I used to experiment with makeup and I would like - collected costumes, I really loved the Rocky Horror Show and things like,… Rocky Horror Show,… going to the theatre. The theatre as well, youth theatre, I was in Wolverhampton Youth Theatre for a while and we did West Side Story and there were like out, gay performers and backstage workers there and I think I was about - when did I do that? About 14-15, so I still wasn’t out but it just made me feel safe and accepted so the theatre was my safe space [pause] and I didn’t really start going to bars and things and clubs,…until I was about 17-18 [pause] and I guess they are safe spaces so in a way they were but actually I found them a bit terrifying, I didn’t really feel like I fit in, in the pubs and bars, so I found them a bit more intimidating than anything else. So, my safe spaces were my friend’s bedrooms, my bedroom when my friends came round and the theatre and anything that got involved in the theatre really, they were my safe spaces, I think. 

Int.: Yeah cool so, what made you decide to move to Liverpool when you did? 

ATW: It was partly, well it was a job, ultimately it was a new job. I’d been working in theatre and education for about 3-4 years down in Birmingham. But it was also a Boyfriend so one of the actors on one of the theatre and education tours had come from Liverpool and we hit it off and we started seeing each other and he finished one contract and immediately got a second contract so he came back down from Liverpool and then I came up and visited a few weekends and y’know there was - Liverpool had a terrible stereotypical reputation for being all scally and robbing, y’know, robbers and all that sort of thing, and I was all like, you know, come on give it a chance. And also I lived in Liverpool when I was a really small child about the age of 18 months-2 something like that, my Mum and Dad lived in Liverpool for a little while so there was sort of links but there weren’t any left, do y’know what I mean? 

Int.: Yeah 

ATW: So I sort of knew of Liverpool and came to visit weekends and met the - this guy’s friends and stuff and it was just sort of nice and we had a really good time. Then there was one weekend I was up and we looked in the Guardian Jobs and I was thinking I really need a change from what I was doing at the moment and there was at a theatre company called Rejects Revenge and they were looking for an administrator so I actually spent a load of time on the application because I really wanted it and I came back from the interview, got the job and moved up, moved in with him initially. Got my own flat about 2-3 months later and I’ve been here ever since. 

But I was a bit scared about moving to Liverpool, it was also the year where everybody was competing for 2008 Capital of Culture and Birmingham was in the running [laugh] and Liverpool was in the running and I got the job and then they announced that Liverpool had,… oh no - no, they’d announced that Liverpool had had Capital of Culture, I remember putting that in my job application, I’m very excited about Liverpool and we want to put Liverpool on the cultural map and everybody was like tick, tick, tick, I ticked all the boxes and got the job but then my ‘Brummy’ friends were like “I don’t know why you’re moving to Liverpool after 2008 it will be a cultural wasteland” all these like horrible, negative things about Liverpool and I was a little bit scared. The Boyfriend I was seeing wasn’t the best and I was thinking oh what if I’m up there and we’re probably going to split up, but you know, I want this job it’s really good, I don’t know what I’m going to do and all my Birmingham friends said “Give it 6 months and y’know, if you don’t like it you can come back to Birmingham there will be places here, y’know, there’ll be jobs and things” and I thought Ok I’ll give it 6 months and at 4 months, I thought I’ve got 2 months left and then 16 years later, 16 years this August. It’s just great and now it’s my home, I met my Husband here, split up with my Husband here, had loads of Boyfriends, got a -  it’s - for me it’s all about creating my own family and I’ve been able to do that in Liverpool… and it’s... yeah,… I love it. 

Int.: What were your first experiences of the queer scene when you came to Liverpool?

ATW: It was - I was with my ex and it was going out pretty much every night while we were here. We mostly came down at weekends, it was The Lisbon, The Masquerade and The G Bar and they were the, what did we call it? I called it the holy trinity so Liverpool’s gay scene. Lisbon, Masquerade and G bar everyone else called it the ‘fruit loop’ [laughs] because that’s what we did, we started at The Lisbon and then we’d go off to The Masquerade then we’d go to the G Bar and sometimes back to The Lisbon and back to the G Bar but it would be,… they’d call it the ‘fruit loop’. 

Int.: See for me it’s The Lisbon, Superstar then G Bar, that’s my trinity. [laughs] 

ATW: It’s really funny actually I had a very funny incident actually, I’d met my ex-Husband then, so it was around 2005-6. Superstar Boudoir was there and we didn’t used to go in Superstar Boudoir very much but my friend Askim*, my very, very good friend Askim* had come up from London and he was really dressy and wore brooches and had like uniform things on and was like a performance artist and dresses up as unicorns and all sorts of things so yeah, he’s brilliant, and then we came up to Superstar Boudoir. We came up - came out to town and we erm… we were trying to get into Superstar Boudoir and as we walked up the bouncers were looking us up and down and I saw that one of the drag queens, I don’t know the names of all the drag queens so whoever was on the door, I saw her go [making gesture] erm,… I’m shaking my head here for the purposes of the tape [laugh] just a very slight erm... and the bouncers said, “You can’t come in mate, you’re straight, you’re not gay” and we went “What?” [laugh] and I went “This is my fiancé, we’re getting married. This is my friend Askim*” and they went “Oh he’s alright” but we just had normal clothes on and whatever that drag queen thought of us she said “You can’t come in” so I haven’t been sin… -  oh I sometimes go with my friend Darren*, if we’re doing a little run and if I’m with Darren Suarez*, he just gets in everywhere, everybody knows him but I tend to not do anything at Superstar Boudoir, I don’t go there because I hold a grudge about them making assumptions about my sexuality. 

Int.: Yeah that’s nuts, especially considering now like, every gay bar going you’ve got loads of straight people in there. 

ATW: Yeah, I know exactly. No, I didn’t, it was one of those little things it’s a little grudge that I hold. I’ve got loads of friends who go to Superstar and everything and it’s all fine but it’s that little silent grudge. I didn’t kick off, I just went “Really?” questioned them and I thought I’m not kicking off in the street with a couple of bouncers. I went “It’s your club, it’s your loss” and we went back to The Lisbon and had a really good night. So now I go like, “No, you judged my sexuality back in 2005, done with you.” So, whoever that drag queen was, whoever those doormen were [laugh], I’ve got casts and casts of actors and people that we take out to places but none of them will go to Superstar Boudoir because of that one night. [laughs]

Int.: Have you seen a change in the 16 years that you’ve been here, in Liverpool’s queer scene? 

ATW: Definitely, definitely. The Lisbon, will always be The Lisbon and it is probably and… erm… always my favourite place to go. I really like it there, I’ve got a big gang of mates, my extended family. If we’re going out, someone goes erm... “What are you doing this weekend?” “Oh nothing” We don’t go out an awful lot. I tend to have dinner parties and have friends round to mine for parties and things at home, that’s my favourite thing to do. My family has grown and extended, my extended family of friends, straight and gay, who all are absolutely brilliant with everybody’s sexually, really open minded and liberal, but we’ll say let’s meet in The Lisbon and we’ll be there all night and our friend Greg* will always like go “Oh I’m bored here now, they’re playing shit music” and I’m going “We’re all having a nice time actually.” [laugh] We go let’s go to The Masquerade and we’ll go up the road, we end up in The Post House at some point, which I hate because there’s no room and then we end up at The Masquerade and we always end up back at The Lisbon, where we started. 

So that’s really great, but the most exciting thing that’s happened in recent years is the advent of nights like erm, Beers for Queers, Sonic Yootha, erm...Eat, Me and preach…there’s another one…erm…have I forgotten another one? [pause] and also our friend, Greg* does a night called Dom and Disco. Which he has been doing since I’ve met my husband because he is a friend of his from Brighton, so he’s been doing sporadic club nights called Dom and Disco, that have been in various venues around the place so that sort of night excites me. Although I love The Lisbon and The James Monroe and little pubs like that, I like doing those little pub crawls but those new spaces that are not exclusively queer spaces but they are really welcoming and you know, like accepting - not accepting but completely embracing of what these, these new people are wanting to do with their nights. That’s the most exciting thing now. These, they’re not really underground, I wouldn’t call it just because it’s away from the gay scene and in new spaces and welcoming to everybody, I just, yeah… Beers for Queers is my favourite night of all time pretty much because it’s just a lovely social and stuff. So, they’re the biggest changes really. Apart from that no, there’s still drag queens on the door at Superstar Boudoir [laughs] I don’t know whether they will deny anybody’s access so yeah. 

It’s just a fun really open place to be and Sonic Yootha has gone from strength to strength and supported Kylie on tour and all sorts of things and that I consider those all really good friends of mine so yeah and after parties and things like that, you know from those once a monthly sort of things rather than having to go clubbing every single week it’s really nice that they are once a month so you know,… at my age it’s like, that’s enough for me. [laugh] That’s absolutely fine. The odd pub crawl in between. I love those nights and I always think, Oh Beers for Queers, I’ll probably stay till like maybe 10 we don’t have to drink loads of beer and we’re still there at half past 12 and we all get finally chucked out so I love those nights it’s my favourite thing. [laugh] 

Int.: I like as well - It feels like Beers for Queers especially even though it is, y’know, an event with alcohol there and stuff there’s no pressure to feel like you need to be like drinking loads and you can just go and chill and I feel like most of the gay scene and everything, like the clubs and everything, well for clubs you have to have had a few drinks to enjoy them. Especially Boudoir and G bar I don’t think I’ve ever been or would want to be in there sober and taking it all in and be like Ooh no, so this is what it’s actually like. But Beers for Queers and even Sonic Yootha, to an extent like, it just feels like you can just go and enjoy yourself and there isn’t that added - you must be drinking to enjoy this.

ATW: I get that a little bit and I’ve often heard people go “Oh there’s so much pressure to drink” and I always think What... but it’s up to you if you drink or not, which is true but there is this little, yeah -  I do notice through Facebook posts and things about people’s weekends and stuff there is a bit of an element as to people bragging about how many shots you’ve had or how many pints you’ve had and “Oh my god I’m an absolute wreck, I’ll never drink again” knowing full well they are going to drink again that’s what everybody says, but yeah I understand it is quite alcohol focused and that’s what those businesses, the bars and clubs are about, and the venues. You see what’s good about Sonic Yootha and Beers for Queers, even though it’s called Beers for Queers it’s not all about the drinking because it’s obviously in the promoters interest to have people drinking so the venue makes some money from the night [pause] but everybody... yeah…everybody’s really chilled and there’s no competition. It’s not like chug, chug, chug and stuff so I get what you mean, I don’t know why that is - I like that the best. The best thing about Beers for Queers is that you can talk and chat and every single month I meet at least 2 or 3 new people. And they come over and say “Hello” even if it’s a brief chat, and like, “Ooh I didn’t know you did that” “Oh I know so and so” and my social circle expands at nights like that. Whereas, I think that we did get to chat to, the sort of new people, but in the traditional bars and clubs there’s not so much of that. Usually there’s a little bit of a clique, and even Beers for Queers has got its cliques and different tables and things but it’s really open. People can come across and say “Hello” and then I introduce them to friends. 
My new boyfriend had never been to Beers for Queers before and he just met everybody and he was really, y’know, he was really high by the end of it, just the fact that there were so many friendly, lovely open people there and that’s the best thing about it I think. Nobody’s got any attitude, people look fabulous, there’s a lot of dressing up happening and there’s a whole mix of ages and everybody just mixes together and it’s just really, really nice. It’s lovely. 

Int.: Is there anything you miss about the scene from when you first got here to now? 

ATW: [Long pause] No. 

Int.: No

ATW: [Pause] Erm, … No not really. I mean the change, I don’t know, things have been cleaned up a little bit. I remember the toilets being filthy at every single place we went to. [laugh] When I first moved up here, there was a night - there was Poptastic, when I first moved up here and that was a really great night and that ended or went to Manchester or whatever - I don’t really know the promoters and stuff. That was a really good night, so I miss that sort of thing, but it’s been replaced by other things, so I don’t have a longing or a yearning for it. There’s not much I miss, maybe some people that aren’t around anymore, but no, not really, yeah. It’s actually more positive, they’ve cleaned the toilets up in most of the venues [laughs]. They were filthy honestly, I used to go “I’m going to the loo.” - Oh, in The Curzon, I remember, not being able to access the men’s loos, in The Curzon at one point because they were underwater. 

Int.: Ugh!

ATW: It was literally, just water all over the floor and there were people paddling to use the toilet and stuff, honestly over the toes of your shoes and I just went “What is wrong with the toilets in Liverpool” but yeah, now The Curzon, The Curzon was fun! 

The Curzon was really good it’s got its reputation of being sleazy and all that and all sorts of things but when I first went out to The Curzon it was rammed, there were loads of people because all the floors were open, it was an absolute fire hazard because the stairs up to the other floors - you could only get one person up and down them, and they had these two double doors to get in and out of the staircases and it was all a bit weird and then you went up there was like a dark dancefloor that was really fun and I thought Oh we could do some great nights here and then through another door and you were in like an old style pub room, looked like something from Coronation Street and then down the steps on the other side, still really narrow with little double doors and you were on the dancefloor and they came out right in the middle of the dancefloor so you’d like come from a little pub and walk down and go Oh shit everybody’s dancing [laugh] round me and it was just, yeah. I remember there was like a softcore porn playing on the TV and stuff. I remember one night there was a blonde guy in a tracksuit in like a shell suit/track suit/white track suit and blonde long hair and he was like sideling up to guys and stuff and he was really, really cute and then we le… - Sorry this is quite graphic [laugh] and we left at the end of the night and he was lying on top of one of the dumpsters outside the door with his tracksuit bottoms around his ankles masturbating, on the thing just trying to… ply his wares and I remember seeing that guy and going “Well, ok, this is Liverpool, this is new, this is fun, this is really good.” Y’know, I quite liked it and then just…out with gangs of friends and I’d always go “Let’s go to The Curzon. It’s always fun there and most of the time they’d go “I’m not going The bloody Curzon.” but when we did we’d always end up at the end of the night having a really good laugh but it used to be really rammed and I think it got quieter and quieter and I don’t know all the politics of the gay scene because I’m not a massive part of it but I sort of - yeah I miss The Curzon because that was sort of fun and dirty and weird and yeah, it was a strange place.

Int.: Yeah, so is there any places that you have in the past or currently avoid because you don’t feel as safe or accepted?

ATW: Superstar Boudoir!! [laughs]

Do you know what, some of the best queens in Liverpool are based at Superstar Boudoir so I really don’t wanna knock it but it was that big mistake that somebody made on that door that has just made me like go - “Are we going to Superstar Boudoir?” and I’d go “I don’t like going in there because they wouldn’t let me in there once because I looked straight.”

There’s nowhere really that I don’t feel safe. There are a lot more gay friendly places rather than gay bars now and I don’t really go out to many of those. They are obviously, sometimes expensive and I notice they only put out rainbow flags up outside them at pride to cash in so I’m a little bit worried about that, but I pretty much feel safe everywhere. I’m wracking my brains to - for bits of homophobia that I might have experienced while I’ve been here, but I can’t really think of any.

Int.: That’s really good.

ATW: It is really good and I don’t know, … Maybe I just look really straight like Superstar Boudoir said [laughs] Whatever, I definitely don’t. Yeah, there’s nowhere I really don’t feel safe. The attitudes of certain places - I’ve never really had any problems on the door with anyone. I’m mentally walking around the scene and going into everywhere. Nowhere really. I often spend a lot of time on Hope Street because of the theatres up there and everything so we go to the theatre a lot just hang out everywhere. I mean, I remember when I first moved up to Liverpool and I lived on Huskerson Street with my ex and I remember talking about where’s good and where isn’t and he had a lot of prejudices about certain areas of the city like he said “Don’t go down Princes Avenue/Princes Road at night, it’s really scary, it’s really,… and you’ll get mugged and it’s really,…” and I was really terrified of that street, for ages, and then I started walking to and from work when I moved to Aigburth, started walking to and from work down there and it’s a great multi-cultural melting pot of just amazing, y’know,… There’s nowhere I don’t feel safe, I think. I haven’t ventured out into some of the - I’m not being prejudiced at all, oh I sound like I am. I haven’t ventured out in places like north Liverpool where people go like, it’s dead dodgy in Anfield, it’s dead dodgy here, it’s dead dodgy there but, yeah, I feel pretty much safe everywhere. 

Int.: Nice.

ATW: Touch Formica! [laughs]

Int.: You’ve mentioned The Lisbon being a go to space for you. Is there anywhere else in Liverpool that are your go to places for just living your best life. 

ATW: Home. Obviously [laugh] I go home every day. [laughs] Y’know what because I like doing dinner parties. I like cooking and having a load of people round and when I meet new people they become part of the family and they get invited round for dinner and sometimes I have 7/8/9 people round for dinner and other people join for drinks and when we have a full on party we have maybe 30 -40 people and then we go to someone else’s house afterwards. I love doing that, I like entertaining myself in my own space. That’s great.

The Lisbon. The James Monroe, that is soon to be called Kitty’s Show Bar. That’s a really nice place and it’s got an older clientele and it’s just really friendly and really great and you walk in there - after the first, second time I’d been in there I went in on my own and they went “Oh hiya Adrian, how are you?” and I was like “Oh my god they remember my name.” So that’s really good, really friendly old school bar, I love it there. And District, I think, because they host Eat, Me and Preach and Beers for Queers and June* is lovely and Fred’s* amazing and they’re just all-embracing and we have our Dom and Disco nights there as well. It’s really good and then pretty much everywhere because like, lots of mates go “Let’s meet in Fredericks, let’s meet here” y’know, the Everyman is always a good place to meet when you’re in the theatre, the Pen Factory is really just good but y’know they’re not specifically queer spaces they are just welcoming and embracing.

Int.: I think it’s important to have, as well as specific queer spaces, to also just have spaces that aren’t queer specific, but you just feel safe in there. We don’t need segregation all the time. 

ATW: Yeah, Theatre bars and all-around Hardman Street and around there and some of the pubs and bars around there are really good. The Magnet used to be really good, that’s not there anymore is it? I can’t remember what it is now. The Magnet used to be the place, especially when we’d finished doing shows at The Unity, we’d all end up, first of all in the old Everyman Bistro downstairs, although that’s not accessible and I work in disability arts as well now so we have to, often have to - we can’t go in The Lisbon. We can’t go in The Masquerade. James Monroe is accessible but yeah accessibility is often a problem especially when we’re doing a show with actors, especially queer actors who are wheelchair users or have mobility issues, often places aren’t accessible, so although The Lisbon is one of my favourite places, I can’t take people there so that’s a bit of an issue but apart from that everywhere is really accepting and great. We used to go to the Everyman Bistro and on to The Magnet and The Kaza [Kazamir] as well used to be fun too. There’s nowhere really that is specifically a go to place apart from “Where are we gonna meet?” “Let’s meet in The Lisbon.” [laugh] 

Int.: Over the 16 years that you have lived here, have you noticed or been aware of more queer people being around Liverpool or have you always just - do you think there’s always just been everyone being very open?

ATW: Do you know what - as younger people get older, attitudes are changing a lot. So I notice more people - yeah I do actually notice more queer people but that’s partly related as well to the fact that I was with my ex-husband for… about 12 years, married erm,… hmm yeah we haven’t divorced yet so we’ve been married 12 years just gone in April but a lot of that time was just hanging out with our circle of friends and entertaining at home and then and going to Dom and Disco and things and meeting in The Lisbon once in a while and I really didn’t have much of a queer circle beyond that, beyond my relationship and our big extended circle of friends so we didn’t really go out in the gay scene but since me and my ex have split up, I’m out there a little bit more and I know with the advent of apps too - dating apps and things. I’m just really looking around that seeing the big negatives of that but also some of the big positives of that too and having little online social media groups like the Mersey Bears, so it made me completely aware of the bear scene in Liverpool too of which I’m really not a member, I don’t identify as a bear. My circle has extended in the last couple of years, since the last year or so, since we decided to split up because I’ve been out meeting new people and stuff.  I think my awareness has changed rather than the scene has changed or anything and people are a lot more open and there are a lot more erm… There are old school drag queens too that have been here for years and years and really part of the furniture of Liverpool, going back years and years and years and they are part of the ingrained history of the city, which is amazing, like Carly* and Shauna* and everything but I’m noticing that there’s a lot of the Ru Paul’s Drag Race style drag queens coming up and stuff that are really working it and making it look flawless and stuff although that’s not the be all and end all. And then nights like, like I say Eat, Me and Preach is attracting more people and more performance artists and things and I’ve been longing for bit more of an alternative cabaret scene for a while like a lot of the drag queens you see in the older pubs now, you’re like “Really! Are you still saying that now?” That’s just really dodgy, that’s just toilet humour, that’s whatever but each to their own. There’s been some clever drag coming out. Now people are really sort of experimenting and opening up about gender fluidity and things like that there’s a lot more openness. 

I see more people holding hands in the street because I think they feel more confident and it’s more positive but on that note Nationally and Internationally it’s also becoming a bit more scary so I’m also a bit holding out for things to change a little bit, for the worse but I think if we stick together and stop bickering with each other within the LGBTQ+ movement I think that we could look out for each other a lot more so if we stop from looking inwards,  start looking outwards a lot more which I think we are doing with the Pride movement,… but even Pride oh my god the organisers of Pride have changed and they are getting so much flak online and I’m going “Give it up. Just got to Pride and enjoy yourself, it’s still free.” People are moaning that they don’t know what time things are happening and they can’t plan their lives and it’s like the end of the month and it’s like just turn up and have a good time, arrange to meet your friends wherever you want to meet them and then just join in. People are doing their best voluntarily to do it and they are just bickering online and being bitter and twisted and I’m going if you’re that bad go and organise your own Pride, y’know. That sort of thing really pisses me off and stop looking out and - look outwards and share or if you’re not happy with the way things are run volunteer and get involved and try to change things. I get sick and tired of all the bickering on the scene amongst ourselves, when we really should be fighting the rise of the right. I don’t know, it’s easy for me to say, I’m just a keyboard warrior really. Pride is a really, good event and that has been going from strength to strength as well so that’s good. 

Int.: What are the positive things that you’ve seen with Pride changed over the past however many years? 

[Talking at the same time] Int.: - Have you been to every Pride? ATW: Just more people coming to the City.

ATW: Pretty much every Pride. I may have missed one year while we’ve been away because it’s also my ex’s birthday around the same time as Pride [pause] and we sometimes go down to Brighton. It’s just got bigger and bigger, there’s always some issues what where it is and the accessibility of it and all these sorts of things, but it just seems bigger and I’m a bit more open to it. They are just experimenting with it and the way Pride can be presented in the City and the fact that it’s still free is brilliant. I think it’s just always a joyous event, from the first Pride event I ever went to in London in 1991 it was just great. One of those first times I ever went. Every Pride, everywhere… every Pride, everywhere I’ve ever been to one from Birmingham which I think was 1997 and then Liverpool, the first one was while I was here, I can’t remember how long that’s been going, apart from that, I wasn’t around for the first one in the car park wherever that was, on Tithebarn Street but the first modern Liverpool Pride a few years ago. I’ve been to most of them since then and it always gives me tummy flips and I always get really annoyed with the people that go “Oh I don’t do the march, I’m not into marching, that’s not what Pride is all about.” and that IS what Pride is all about.

Int.: That’s literally, the main bit.

ATW: That is the most important bit of Pride. You can get rid of all the stages. If people keep bickering about “Oh the stages are shit” This, that and the other, I think they should just stop all those entertainment stages and just have the march. Then if people don’t want to march they can go to the pubs by themselves, and not have to pay - no one has to pay to get into different areas, there’s bag searches in different places to stop people from bringing alcohol in which is a niggle for some people but every single Pride I’ve ever been to just gives me tummy tickles. Just about everybody walking together. The funniest thing about Pride sometimes is, y’know, is for some reason it’s always when the march turns from Whitechapel onto Lord Street and that’s when you see the shoppers lining the route and they all have really grumpy faces just because they can’t get across to British Home - it’s gone now, but they can’t get across to British Home Stores with all these queers walking in the street and I think just come join us and walk through I don’t care. Just seeing all these grumpy faces and you wave at them or wave your rainbow flag or whatever you know and just raising smiles from people. It’s just great. The fundamentalist Christians at the end of Derby Square, they’re always funny and people start shouting back at them and things. [laugh] Anyway… Pride is a great thing, the march is my favourite thing. In fact for the first couple of Prides we did the march and got to the end and a couple of years it was at the Pier Head and it  and we had a quick hmm we’re not really interested in anything else now, had a quick hello to people and then we went home and made dinner and had people round at our house instead so the march is my favourite bit it’s just great and nothing has really improved - it’s got bigger I think and that’s the most important positive thing about it so basically as long as that march is happening that’s what Pride is all about for me. 

Int.: Yeah definitely, so how would you like to see Liverpool change and improve in the future? Like queer things? 

ATW: [pause] I would like to see more young people being creative with the sort of social scene that they wanna do, there’s a lot of talk about the traditional scene being centred on alcohol and things. I’m quite excited about the sort of events that Mersey Bear group are running, and I think that could be extended but I think that’s up to the people that want something different to make it happen themselves. There are a lot of venues outside of the City centre, around the Baltic triangle and popping up on the north shore and things as well. I think it’s what I’m excited about that I haven’t seen happening yet although I might be unaware of them is, [pause] the scene being changed by the people in it and people starting their own nights that aren’t necessarily all about clubbing and drinking, y’know, like dinner party nights, y’know that’s my sort of thing. It might be my age and stuff, like having supper clubs or things like that and finding new exciting ways to socialise with each other in safe spaces. There are a lot of safe spaces and open armed places that are up for new ideas and new nights so I’m excited to see what happens and I’m up for going to them.

Int.: Have you been to any of the Queer collectives’ things that they do?

ATW: I have. I went to the first one but it’s...I keep saying to erm…Nic* and Elsie*, y’know “I’m sorry I can’t make it again.” because whenever they have one there’s something happening or I’m away or I’m doing another event or it’s been the Vogue ball as well. I haven’t mentioned the Vogue ball either, more Vogue ball events as well and that sort of thing because I sort of co-produce the Vogue ball with House of Suarez* and I’m interested to see new houses coming up and people being more aware of it, I often mention the Vogue ball to people and they go “Oh I don’t know what’s that” and I say “You should come, you should really, really come and then put a house together. 

Int.: Tell us about the Vogue ball.

ATW: Do you know what? A lot of people will be familiar with Pose the FX series about New York in the 80s/90s and the vogue scene there and its an homage to that style of Vogue ball that Darren Suarez* has been running that since 2008. It’s just a night where houses display their ingenuity in costume making and stage presence. There are 2 choreography categories in the event where they really get to show off their vogueing skills and things but it’s about costume, interpretation of a theme and it’s a big three and a half hour/four-hour event and there is a lot of prosecco gets swilled [laugh]. Everybody I’ve taken to it who’ve not known what to expect have come away going that is one of the best nights we’ve ever been to, that’s amazing and I am just proud to be involved in it. I get the funding for Darren*, and Darren Suarez* but what I love about the vogue movement rather than judging your exact vogue moves in the choreography of it is the fact that houses are families. It’s started in the Black and Latino areas of New York, where street kids would come together and fight battle at drag balls and things, instead of fighting with guns and knives on the streets. They battled with costumes and who could be the most real and they looked after each other in houses and the house mother would control all the children and create a safe space for them and often the children would all live in the same apartment - the same house. They’d look out for each other and they’d all chip in for the rent and the money and the food and all that sort of things and they got supported and the houses are like that. For better or worse depending on the house mother but I quite like that idea and I don’t think it should be limited to the vogue scene either like my own extended family. I’ve got straight friends and gay friends who all know each other and I’m really big on introducing people to each other and like y’know, when I meet a new boyfriend or a friend and I’ll say come along or come for dinner my friends are coming, “Ooh I won’t know anybody” and you will, by the end of it. 

My parties are always like that there’s always new friendships and Facebook friends that get made after parties and things and I sort see myself as like, I haven’t got a vogue house. I’ve had a couple of little dabbles - dabbling in vogue houses, putting a house together for the ball but I think I’m the mother of my own house basically, with my extended circle of friends around me. 

My Mum and Dad come up and they love their Liverpool family and they have even considered moving to Liverpool because they know so many people through me and things. Liverpool is a bit like that, it’s got a big history of strong families - Catholic families, not just Catholic but y’know, there are big supportive families especially in the working class areas and I think that’s pretty much the same in the gay scene too and it’s what I’m really into. I’m massively into loyalty and families and things but not being exclusive and closed door policy so if somebody new comes along they are welcome into the family and I sort of like that and I look at things like Pose and Paris is burning and the history of the vogue movement, the crux of it is families. It’s all about vogue dance and who can be the best at this, that and the other and competition amongst houses and stuff but it’s friendly for the most part, friendly competition and I like that but it’s about family at its heart and I think that’s one of the most important things about the LGBTQ scene. It’s about being one big rainbow family with your little families and cliques within it and that’s what I like about it and that’s where I fit in and that’s where vogue fits in with me. I’m not a voguer, I’ve done drag for a few years and I don’t really do it much now but for me it was about doing runway modelling on the catwalk and things and just meeting new people in the way that work is meeting new people as well and finding new scenes and new people and new photographers - new people that I’ll be working with and they’re becoming a bit of a family too. I like to bring people together and getting them collaborating on things. That’s what I like about Beers for Queers, I’m running all over the place with all my analogies [laughs]. That’s what I like about Beers for queers, too there’s the Beers for Queers family, there’s the Sonic Yootha family, there’s the Eat, Me and Preach family. Yeah, the LGBT scene - for me, is about family.

Int.: Yeah definitely. So, going more broadly you mentioned before about the LGBTQI+ scene and about how we can sometimes be bickering within each other…

ATW: Mm hmm, Family feuds [laughs] 

Int.: What do you think we need to change as a community to move forward? 

ATW: It’s tricky because it’s very, very difficult to change people’s minds [pause] and there are a few people, it’s not age limited it’s young and old people that actively just like to bitch, they just like to bicker and I don’t think we’ll ever change that. I don’t think whoever took over Pride, whether they wanted to go down a commercial route or down the “Right it’s only going to be a Pride march” route, there will be bitter, moaning, bickering people and it’s not just limited to the gay scene, there’s bitter, moaning,  bickering Brexit voting [gasp] people all over the Country. I don’t think we’ll ever change that but it’s about being aware. I think there maybe be people that - I think one of the answers could be that if people witness bickering there should be more mediators on the LGBT scene, open minded people that can get involved... that y’know… there are too… y’know - I’m going off on tangents now. 

I think we could do with more mediators, that will listen and understand other people’s points of view a little bit and embrace people and really stand up and challenge racism and sexism and genderism and ableism and - on the gay scene. I mean a lot of the venues aren’t accessible to wheelchair users, I mean that can’t change, The Lisbon - y’know what’s the answer to The Lisbon? They might get a lift in, maybe? I don’t know whether that’s possible. Those places are just never gonna be accessible and they are known for being in those homes and those spaces so we can’t really change that, but people should feel empowered to challenge that and let people know that’s not ok. Instead of just sitting and sniggering behind their hands when someone makes a big, awful, racist, controversial comment, they should challenge it. 

Int.: Yeah definitely.

ATW: I should challenge it more too, although I don’t hear it very much because if I did, I would challenge that I’d go “Woah! Come on. You can’t say that.” Not that they can’t say that but to challenge why they feel the need to say things like that. But on saying that I haven’t witnessed any racism or sexism and things but then I’m a white, cis-gendered gay man, queer man. I don’t really see a lot of that but if I - I don’t really listen out for it very much but if it pops up or if I hear friends saying stuff controversial I will really challenge them and argue it out with them as well and that’s it really but other than that there could be some people that mediate. I think there is a lot of people bickering in the [pause] in the young and old scene, y’know what I mean, there’s little cliques and they all bicker and sometimes I see people’s social media sites and I go “Really? Do we really want that on the public forum?” It’s like somebody said something to somebody the night before and I’m gonna get you and if I ever see you again, I’m gonna kick your head in…. blah, blah, blah, blah, blah and I’m going “Really? You’ve got better things to do than…” but for some people those bits of the scene, alcohol and drugs and things are their life and that’s it so y’know, more support for each other I think and more challenging and mediating these silly little, petty arguments. Also, people standing up for organisations like Pride, LCR Pride. Y’know they are doing their best. They’ve been taken over and set up to run a charitable event, basically that is ran by volunteers and people should, they are constantly defending themselves against the bickering and I think that people should wade in a little bit and argue them down and say “Right, there’s a volunteers meeting here. I understand that you don’t agree with the way that pride is being run. There’s a meeting here, come and volunteer.” And try to push people towards that rather than just bitching it. 

Int.: Yeah. How do you feel about the development of labels and do you think they are restricting, or do you embrace them? 

ATW: I embrace people that embrace the labels but - and sometimes it’s quite difficult to get your head around new terms and stuff but it’s about being open minded to it. I can describe myself as a white, cis gendered, gay man because if I was filling in an equalities form those are the ones, I would tick - but then people go “What’s cis-gendered then?” Right, it means you’ve got the gender that you were assigned at birth and that’s you and you’re happy with that sort of thing, that’s cis-gendered isn’t it. [pause] And I’m up for it, I don’t think it’s restrictive. It’s a bit weird because the bears, there’s a different label that - there are different layers of labels like for people who are non-binary and gender fluid there are different names for different elements of these sort of scenes and how people identify and that just takes some learning and being open minded about it but then are those more traditional things like twink and bear. I’ve seen people, oh my god, lamenting the fact that they have turned 26 and they are no longer officially a twink, as if some law has been passed that say once you turn 26 you can’t call yourself a twink anymore and they are so obsessed with youth and they are getting age - and they are getting older at 26 and it makes me want to cry for them. Going, I’m 47 and I still feel the same as I did when I was 25, y’know and just get over yourselves sometimes I wanna say… -  but the bear thing, yeah. Restricting - I don’t really see them as restricting but it’s really funny because I’m a member of the Mersey bears group and there were certain badges at Pride last year, they had. There was the Mersey bears [group A] badge and then there was the Trans pride badge and then there was the Rainbow freedom flag badge and then there was erm,… there was maybe another flag badge and they went “Have one of these, have one of these, have one of these” and I was like going yeah but I’m looking at which badge I might have and I think I’ll have the Freedom flag badge but then I might have the Trans badge, have a Mersey bears one!and I just end up going “I don’t identify, I don’t wanna wear a bear badge” [laughs]. 

So just because I’m a member and I’ve got a beard and I’m an older man and I’m sort of a  bit hairy and all that sort of thing they are all going “Right, you’re a bear now” and I don’t actually identify I don’t find big bear men attractive to be honest so it’s a bit like a - but you’re really good people and you’re really good friends and I’m in it for social crap really. So, I don’t find it restrictive but it’s just sometimes, “Well you’re an otter, actually no, you’re a wolf, oh no you’re a polar bear, you’re a whatever” and I’m going “Oh my god! It’s like a fucking zoo!” [laughs] but I think it’s fun. It’s not something to like bitch about or anything it is just really fun, but I do end up shouting sometimes when they are like going and you just go “I DON’T IDENTIFY!” I think I’ll wear a badge to Pride saying I don’t identify, I’m just me and I’m proud. [laughs] 

Int.: There’s definitely different layers to the labels and there are some that are like “Yeah no, that’s sound” and others that are like “You do you, but no thank you.” 

ATW: Yeah exactly. It’s like, it’s fine. 

Int.: It’s exactly the same within the lesbian - bull dyke and baby dyke and femme and butch and Oh, I’m just a lesbian. 

ATW: Just be you. That’s it.

Int.: I’m just a dyke and end it at that. That’s it.

ATW: I remember actually, when we first met, basically I was like, so what are you? I didn’t say that but [laughs] I wouldn’t say that but how do you identify then? What are you?

Int.: I am a little dyke.

ATW: That’s it. I remember you saying that and “Well there you [clap] go then, that’s old school, That’s great that.” [laugh]

Int.: For me it’s just like a little, it’s something that I’ve always been called when I was younger and stuff, like a slur, a bad thing and now it’s just like, I am a lesbian but that word itself, I mean it’s just something that I put in my own head that feels more like a femme word. Whereas, I’m like, I don’t really identify with being feminine and stuff and I dunno dyke, when it’s not being used aggressively and hatefully, I think dyke is like a spunky word and I’m like “Yeah, that’s me, I’m a dyke, I’m a little dyke. I like that, that’s mine.”

ATW: There’s a thing about labels as well, that, actually there is a dark thing that really annoys me sometimes. It’s erm, gay - The misogyny amongst gay men. A lot of the gay men, the bear scene has it quite a little bit although most of my friends aren’t like that, but I see it all over the place. I mean traditionally when I first came out on the scene hearing gay men going “Oh fish, fish, fish” when there was a woman on the scene and fucking Ru Paul’s drag race really like, you know erm, continues that by calling fishy queens. Just think, you know I hate it when Ru Paul’s drag race has that one tag line where it goes ‘May the best woman win.’ And I’m going “They’re not women!” They are men in drag and in fact your rules state that you can’t have women in drag so don’t call them women. May the best drag queen win. What’s wrong - it fits why are you saying may the best women win? Maybe I don’t want to police language and all that sort of thing, but the misogyny - gay men calling women fish and this is “W- What are the women doing in our men only bars” and all that sort of thing but it goes - it comes from the lesbian scene as well and there’s the man hating thing and all that exclusive - excluding males and excluding females, no time for that I’m not interested in that at all. That whole, [pause] Look at these dykes over here and all this, that and the other. I remember there were some issues with the lesbian scene when I was growing up in Wolverhampton and when I worked in one of the big clubs there and there were stereotype people, there would be the bitchy men that would start the beginning of the night in the main club upstairs and then end up in the dark room downstairs, into the dark club and then that would be it but if a woman went in there they would go “fshfshfsh” and I was like “Oh good god! That’s awful” that’s Nazism or just really terrible. There was a thing, the lesbians would always be having fights, literally would be having a fight and once I saw one person throw her girlfriend over the balcony of the club and she landed on the dance floor and then got up and carried on and went back upstairs. They were - the lesbians were always having fights and the gay men would all be like, not all of them obviously but there would be fights amongst the lesbians about other girlfriends or invariably money and household situations and they’d be having a big kick off about that or they had looked at another person’s girlfriend or something and they’d have big full on fights and they gay men would just have like bitchy shouting matches and slap fests and things like that so they are all living up to their stereotypes. But generally right in the middle of the were us, who were just open and things so hopefully those attitudes are dying out but they still exist and those sorts of labels are really shitty those whole gender wars and things, just get over it and get on, we’ve got bigger things to fight than amongst ourselves and it’s just frustrating sometimes. 

Int.: Yeah, how do you feel that the public perception has changed?

ATW: I think [pause] I don’t want to say People are more accepting, people are more tolerant. I hate the word tolerance. 

Int.: Yeah it implies that you’re letting it happen, but you don’t…

ATW: There’s a lot of ‘Don’t give a shit’ attitudes which I like. It’s like going “Ooh, I came out as gay and blah, blah, blah” “Ok, great, whatever. We thought you were, oh I didn’t realise you hadn’t come out.” You know that sort of thing where people are just, sort of thing - where people do accept it. But I am a bit worried about the empowerment that Brexit and the Brexit parties and the intolerant right wing parties and are now giving people the license to first of all be racist and anti-immigrants and it’s the rise of hate crime and people feeling empowered to be able to do that, like they have support from the MPs that they voted for to do that and the fact that the MPs aren’t being challenged other than by us on social media and things like that, this sort of thing is not being challenged and Ann Widdicombe’s just being y’know, y’know… politicians and things empowering people to have those and making it acceptable to have those views. That’s what’s a little bit scary. We’ve never had it so good, I think we might be about to be getting it bad and that’s not just about me being negative and doom and gloom, but I think we should be really looking over our shoulders a little bit more - Not live in fear! There’s no point to living in fear but I think we should start being aware of it because it is starting to kick off a little bit. I’ve been watching that BBC programme Years and Years, have you seen any of it?

Int.: No, it’s on my list of things to watch.

ATW: Oh, please watch it, watch it, watch it, it’s so amazing. It’s really, scary about what might happen in the next 20, 20/30 years or whatever and yeah, so I’m a little bit… seeing the rise of Trump, the rise of the Brexit party, people like Farage being given a platform. You know, I know there’s freedom of speech and people can voice their opinions and things, but they have to be up for debate and argument about it but those poor women on the bus last…

Int.: Oh…

ATW: And they are not exclusive, they were the ones that came and told their story and got in the media and things but it’s happening all over the place. And I feel really safe…

Int.: That did make me feel like a little bit like scared it’s one of those things you think everything’s. 

ATW: Four or five men on two women although y’know it’s like going that a bit, y’know... Four or five men on two women just because they’re - and they are teenagers and people protesting that guy who is leading the protest in Birmingham and because I’m from Birmingham as well and Anderton Park was one of the schools we used to go to when we were doing T.I.E. shows and it’s a great school, it’s a really, really good school and it’s a majoritively mainly Muslim school but it’s a brilliant school it’s really welcoming and inclusive and multicultural, brilliant. Love it. So that fact that they have centred around that school and that idiot who has got no kids at the school is just leading that protest to big up his own reputation and put himself in the media, he’s got no interest in those kids, he’s got no interest in what they are doing he’s bringing hate speakers in there and who are - they are not listening to the truth about that and I’m seeing more and more people having platforms like that and it’s really scary. People should be allowed to have their opinion, even if we don’t agree with it, but they should be challenged and as soon as they start advocating hate and actually telling lies… y’know… a lot of those protestors are bring people to speak saying “That school…” You know one of the speakers that they brought for the protest saying, “There are paedophiles in there” It’s just like Woah! Challenge that, challenge that right now. Not through shouting but through being made to sit around a table and shown the book and show them things rather than just being allowed to be whipped up into a frenzy of hate because you feel marginalised. That comes from - on the gay scene as well because you feel marginalised there’s no reason to whip up hate and violence, it is about talking it through and having people being made aware of the actual truth. So, for me it’s all about family and speaking the truth or your own truth. Yeah.I don’t even know what the question was [laughs] I’m just waffling. 

Int.: On public perception.

ATW: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I think for the most part, we’re more visible. People are aware of us. People don’t care that much which I quite like. What would be brilliant is a world where no one has to come out as anything because you are just accepted as you whoever you are and I think that’s the ideal, which means killing the LGB - not killing the LGBT scene, but y’know, we shouldn’t have a need for Pride but we do. Erm…but…I’m watching my back at the moment because it’s yeah, there’s a rise of somethings and we’ve rested on our laurels a bit more. And bickering about what bloody acts are gonna be on at what time at Pride and then saying, “Oh I don’t bother with the march” It’s like going “Just don’t bother with Pride then.” Do you know what I mean? That’s the most important thing that visibility. We’ve rested on our laurels too much and we’ve just gotta be…I don’t think it’s the beginning of another holocaust or anything like that, but I do think that we’ve got to look out for each other. 

Int.: So, as a finishing message. If you had one thing to say to your younger self or the younger queer community now, what would that be? 

ATW: Keep doing what you’re doing and being yourselves. I’d probably say that to my younger self as well. Loads and loads of issues. I had body dysmorphia when I was about 25 when I was a 28-inch waist and I still felt fat and I still look at photos of myself from back then going “Oh my god, I was such a gorgeous skinny twink. I could have made so much money with that body” but yeah, stop giving myself a hard time, it’s taken me to 45/6/7 to realise that and to actually work out some of my own mental health issues and things about giving myself a hard time and being my own worst enemy by being so self-critical. Just don’t criticise yourself. Find ways that you can improve and don’t waste so much time procrastinating, get on with it. I could have done so many more brilliant things than I’ve done if I wasn’t so scared and procrastinate-y and down on myself, so yeah keep doing what you’re doing and look out and educate people and tell people the truth.