Int.: We’ll just start with where you were born and where you grew up?

Tom: Okay, I was born in Fazakerly Hospital and I grew up in Fazakerly, in Liverpool. Lived in Third Avenue all my life until, well until I moved out when I was 18. So yeah that’s where. 

Int.: So when did you realise that you were of the queer persuasion?

Tom: That was when, uh…okay, so I knew definitely when I was like 11…but I always say that…part of me knew always, I think…but I knew when I was 11 so I don’t really know how I’d describe the knowing that was there before I KNEW [laughs] If that makes sense. It was like becoming aware of something that was already there I think. So I’d say it was when I was in year 7.

Int.: Yeah, what was the moment that you were like “yeah I’m probably gay”?

Tom: There was a few, I think there were just a few things that were going on. There were things when I was in primary school, kids would say stuff and I’d feel like, offended or upset but I did’t know why I felt upset. There was like, say like…on TV shows if there were  gay storylines I’d be kind of, excited or I’d feel like I was watching something that was like special, but wrong. I remember at the time there was stuff on Hollyoaks and there was also Maxxie in Skins and I was like obsessed with him. Sam Sparrow had music out at the time and I was like drawn to that and I think my head was just putting all those things together being like, okay that’s what that is. So there wasn’t one specific moment but I think it was just a lot of specific things coming together and it kind of went, oh! that makes sense now, that’s what that is. 

Int.: Did you come out immediately when you’d got it all together in your head?

Tom: No, I feel like I had to come out to myself first, which did take time…I did tell myself but then I kind of immediately went back on it and was like, NO that can’t be it. So that took months…I’d imagine there was probably like…maybe I went to forums on the internet or chat rooms and things like that, I think that was the next step. Obviously to people I didn’t know. I mean there was one forum that I used to post on which was A Series of Unfortunate Events fan club thing, I think I told people there. Then I didn’t tell anybody that I actually knew in real life until I was…14, that was year 9. Then it was a point of, I told one friend and then it was like a…couldn’t stop me kind of thing, I told lots of friends so over the course of that year, or the next two years I told I think all the people that I was close with in school. Family came later, that was when I was 18. 

Int. How was it in school once you were out?

Tom: I think it wasn’t too…hard for me because I was kind of casually out, I think I was out with my friends which was fine, I had a really good experience with that I was quite lucky. But I wasn’t particularly loud or confident in school so even though, I think if I’d been asked I would have been out say from like, fifteen onwards, most people didn’t ask, a lot of people didn’t talk to me so…I don’t know I don’t think many people were actually interested in me and what was going on with me so generally it was fine. I think there was always issues with like overhearing things or y’know, like people being homophobic and it wouldn’t be always directed at me but obviously I would take offence from it. That’s what most of the issues I had would be.

Int.: What about family, how did that go?

Tom: Erm, family was a mixed bag. It was good, and I think compared as well like…I did take for granted y’know like, how lucky I was that nothing hideous happened or anything. My mum was understanding, she was just annoyed with the way that I told her over the phone. I was in the pub, with my friends and I was going away to Hong Kong for a year, and they’d asked me “have you done everything that you need to do before you go?” so I was like, "yeah I’ve packed, I’ve done this I’ve done that, oh I was gonna come out and I still haven’t done that”. But [laughs] my whole plan was, I didn’t wanna have to do a ‘coming out’ I just had this whole—I was very angry, I remember when I was a teenager being like, straight people don’t have to do it why do I have to do it. So I was always like, when I get a boyfriend that would be the way I’d do it—“here’s so and so, we’re together”. That never happened so it kind of held me back, and then yeah, I was in the pub and I’d had too many Hooches [laughs] and was just like, I’m gonna phone my mum now, and everybody was like nononooo—except one of my friends Barry* was like “YES do it do it do it!” [laughs] and so yeah, I did it over the phone and when I went back that night, she was…annoyed that I did it over the phone. She said “I didn’t like that you told me over the phone, I could hear all your friends shouting and it was just a bad way to do it.” I was like, fair enough. She was like “Can we talk about it tomorrow?” and I was like yep. We talked about it, it was…I don’t even really remember that conversation much. I remember our conversation on the phone, she just kind of said “Oh, well thanks for letting me know. I think I already knew but thanks for letting me know. Do you want me to tell the rest of the family?” and I said yes, cause I thought that’s easier than me having to do it. So that’s how that went and then, I think over the course of like the next few days or whatever my brother had a conversation with me about it, my sister did but again like, very short, very casual so I kind of liked that they saw that I didn’t wanna have to go into some big thing about it and they kind of went along with that. My dad was more of a mixed bag. He didn’t speak to me for maybe a week—I mean I didn’t live in the house so we often would go days without speaking it wasn't a big deal. But I noticed it more that time we didn’t speak for over a week or more. It’s really bad, I read the text that he had sent my mum, and he said that he was like “I don’t understand it. I can’t understand it” that kind of thing. When he did talk about it he was a bit more…I don’t know how to put it, he…didn’t really focus on that. But I think it has taken him a long time to get used to it. But I think he has, and he has never gave me any real trouble about it so yeah, good. The rest of the family, chill. Cousins and that, that was all fine. Older generation, again don’t really talk about it that much, my nan was okay but other family members don’t talk about it much, but then I don’t talk to them much so. Pretty good I think.

Int.: So before you left for Hong Kong when you were 18, were you involved in the queer scene at all?

Tom: No? Like, yes and no, we used to go out in sixth form like in my last year, just like on the weekends and, it would normally be Superstar Boudoir would be where we’d go, the Post House maybe. We didn’t really go to the other clubs much like, it was…a couple years later until I’d been to the Lisbon or like Gbar. So it was really just that—there were a couple others, awful ones like Pink, which is closed I think? 

Int.: Yeah it is.

Tom: Thank god [laughs]. Heaven before it got done as a good place to go. So that side of the scene, yes. But generally no—like there was nothing else that I used to go to…and even then we didn’t—well personally I didn’t know many other people who were there—it wasn’t like I’d go and I’d expect to see somebody it’d just be me and my friends and we’d go and we’d leave. I didn’t really…have many queer friends outside of the ones that I had in school, but having said that, that was partly because I had so many in school, I was so lucky with that it almost felt like it satisfied what I was looking for at the time—I didn’t think to look for more really. 

Int.: So you’ve kind of had that connection that some people often look for when you’re discovering yourself and you need someone to talk to, I guess you were lucky that you already had those people. 

Tom: I already had it and I think…yeah that meant that I didn’t really look outside of that until I got a bit older. 

Int.: I’m quite interested to know what the… what it was like being gay over in Hong Kong. What was that whole experience and is there a gay scene there that you accessed?

Tom: There was a gay scene, I think it’s funny because that’s also the first time that I was like, not living at home. So my experience was, I guess similar to how other peoples would be in that, you get away from home and you wanna branch out. So I tried to push myself to do a lot of things. I got sent to a Christian school to teach english and so lots of people on the programme that I was on were Christian, I had a real mixed bag about how comfortable they were with my sexuality, luckily the two girls who I worked with were absolutely chill. But they didn’t fancy—they didn’t go out much anyway in the night and my route always at that age was thinking if you want to get into the scene, that’s the way to, to go to clubs or whatever. I remember on my eighteenth birth—my nineteenth birthday which was a month into being there, I went by myself to a gay bar [laughs] I had to get the bus, cause we lived almost an hour out from the centre, and it was good and I spoke to a few guys there and…it was nice I had a good time but, I didn’t really connect with anything, and I didn’t got to the clubs or anything. 

Int.: What were your feelings as you were going to the gay bars in a completely different country, alone, somewhere where its not really talked about much over there either is it?

Tom: No it isn’t. I think because I was already…I was already used to doing things by myself then anyway, it didn’t really put me off and I think I played off the thing that there is a bit of—you do get a bit of a reception when you’re there that, “oh you’re not from here so you do things differently” so I think here, I’d really think twice before going by myself to somewhere like that because I would factor in what other people thought more. There I already thought like, people are already gonna think I’m weird so, do it anyway kind of thing. Also the set up there is a bit more…open so people were doing things by themselves I think because it’s not as common for people to be out, so those kind of places are more used to single people coming in after work or whatever. So I don’t think I stood out that much. It was only a small bar anyway, half the people had to sit at the bar. So yeah it did’t bother me too much I think…but I do think because it was less open there it maybe…was harder to…to meet other people, or feel part of the scene. It wasn’t until half way through my year that I met up with someone on Grindr. We didn’t do anything we just went for a drink, and we really got along. Then I met all his friends—he had a boyfriend at the time, and that became my like, main friend group—I did loads of things through them and lots of the people in that group were queer so that was my kind of way through it and I think that was a much more…like once that happened everything else kind of clicked and I enjoyed the wider scene more. But I still feel like I didn’t see much of it—I think I saw the side that, people who’ve come from other countries see. I do think there’s other stuff going on there, but I think it maybe—not that it’s not accessible it’s just that you really need to have an ‘in’ before you can get into it really. I didn’t speak the language fluently enough. So I’d say I got the kind of, step up from the tourist experience but not much different to what a tourist would do if you just googled ‘where can you go in Hong Kong to drink’ or something like that. Although I would say one of the differences there was, one of the favourite bars we used to go to was a karaoke bar, but everybody there seemed to know each other and it felt a bit different to a karaoke night here, because they take it quite seriously. When someone gets up to sing you are meant to quieten down conversation and listen, everybody claps at the end. Yeah it just had a really good vibe there, that was nice. 

Int.: So did you come back to Liverpool after Hong Kong?

Tom: I went on holiday a bit, but then I came back for the summer and then started university in September so I was here for maybe a month or so. 

Int.: Did you do much in terms of the Queer scene here in that month?

Tom: I didn’t, it was a whistle stop. I think we probably went out. There wasn’t much else that I did, and it was like that for the next few years really. I’d only come back in the summer, I don’t even remember it always being the full three months. So it would always be so brief I feel like I never really tapped into anything other than what I was used to when I was in Sixth form.

Int.: When did you come back and take up roots again in Liverpool?

Tom: That was after uni so, last summer so it’s been about a year. 

Int.: And what’s ‘queer life’ for you now in Liverpool?

Tom: It’s definitely more varied. I think that’s partly because it is more varied, there’s more going on, but I do—I’m always aware that your experience is affected by what you want… what you can look out for, so even though there is more going on now, I do think some of it will have been going on, or there will have been different stuff that was going on when I was younger I just wasn’t always looking for it, because I’ve had that experience at say university, I lived in three different houses each year, and if I asked anyone who I lived with from each year, they will explain how Canterbury is, completely differently. Someone will say, oh it’s so quiet they never did anything, others will say oh it was too wild there I did too much whatever, and that just shows me that you can sometimes be in a bubble and you think that’s how it always is so, I would say it’s a mix of…there’s more going on and I actively look out for more of what is going on. Yeah it’s different in that it’s more spread out, there’s more of a mix of what kind of things I go to now so it’s not all about night life, and even the night life that I do go to I think is more varied. So it has different kinds of performances than what I used to see or different kinds of music, different kinds of groups of people who go. I’ve also, just from being here long term, there’s now people who I see or expect to see and I feel like I’m building more connections. Which I really like. So I’d think I enjoy it more erm…that side of it. 

Int.: What are your favourite things that you’ve been doing?

Tom: I think…the…okay. Going to Sonic Yootha has been really good for me through the people I’ve met there because I always felt like I had to depend on who else could come with me to something. This is the first time where I feel like I can go and there’ll be people there who I will see so, I try not to miss it. And I also like that through going there I’ve met older people who’ve been in the city for a long time and I always like to hear about what their experience was like, and basically the classic history and stuff, I love all that kind of stuff so I like hearing them talk about just, stupid stories or whatever. I really like some of the exhibitions that have been out, there’s the one in the Museum of Liverpool which I think has just about finished erm, I can’t remember what the name of the actual exhibition was but… 

Int.: “Tales from the City”

Tom: Yes! Tales from the City, which had tales from the city. And there’s lots of stuff that I didn’t know—that’s what I mean I think there’s lots of like, history to the city that I didn’t know and you can sometimes tap into it and that was great … There was one thing there [at the Walker] that I saw which was like…like a video screen they’d gone and filmed all different gay pubs, clubs, whatever else across the country and because it was meant to show like—they just wanted to document it because lots of venues have been closing. That was good. Also some of the music like gigs and things there’s—I think there’s more—

*Had to move to another location to continue recording*

Tom: I can’t really remember what we were talking about? 

Int.: Okay, so interview part two. We were kicked out of the Cafe. We are back. Erm… 

Tom: Comfier chairs

Int.: Yeah comfier chairs, okay so…I guess we were talking about your favourite queer events that you’ve— 

Tom: Shit I’ve just completely like, swilled you by like pumping the chair into the table so… 

Int.: [Laughs] Okay so you were talking about your favourite things that you—queer events and stuff that you’ve been going to, do you wanna tell me when you came back from uni, were you actively seeking these things? Or are these things that you just sort of stumbled on?

Tom: I was definitely, at first, actively seeking them. When I was in Canterbury at times I felt like…I felt a bit cut off from it. There wasn’t much going on. My friendship circle wasn’t—there were a few people who would come with me or, a few queer people but, not many so I think I wanted to make an active effort, like I was already looking. I was listening to the Queer Liverpool podcast, which was on whilst I was still at uni, and I used to just look at what was on and I wouldn’t get to go, but I knew that it was something that I would go to if I was there. So yeah, I think I made an effort and then, I don’t do that as much now but I think that’s because I tend to expect that people like you, or anybody else that I already know will kind of let me know or invite me to whatever so, I generally have a way of knowing about stuff. Sometimes I’ll hear about something afterwards and think, argh that would have been good to go to but generally yeah, I hear about it now. 

Int.: Have you seen a change in the scene in Liverpool, or is it that you’re noticing the scene more now?

Tom: I do think I have seen it change, I just think it’s more broad with what’s going on. I do think slowly there’s getting more things outside of nightlife to do, I still think there could be more, but—oh yeah that’s one thing I was talking about just when we moved, I think that in terms of music scene, I’ve got more interested in actively trying to follow local music and at the moment there’s a fair few queer bands, what I mean by that are bands that are, or music that’s actively trying to say something about queer topics, that’s been really good to see.

Int.: What examples?

Tom: So erm…Queen Zee I’ve seen live a couple times and there was a band supporting her called Piss Kitti that I really enjoyed, I wanna see them more, they’ve got a few dates coming up. They’re just…just a more relatable—I think the music scene here can often just be…y’know like, straight white guys in kind of a regular indie set up. They’re a bit more punk and a bit more…just some of the lyrics are tackling things like gender and identity expression and things like that so, that’s been fun to see. 

Int.: What spaces in Liverpool would you say, from both past and present, do you feel most visible and excepted and y’know, you’re not worried about the sort of vibe or if it’s gonna be accepting of being queer?

Tom: I’d say…if you look at like what’s classically seen as gay town, I do generally feel comfortable there…but having said that, I do think that erm…how to put it…I know that some of my friends don’t feel as comfortable going there anymore, I'd say me included, because we’ve had enough incidents where er, DJ’s or other people at some of the bars, so I’m talking Superstar Boudoir or say…where else like, Navy Bar like those kind of places, Gbar, sometimes I do think there’s still a bit of a clique with people who go there and…sometimes I do have to defend myself from y’know, comments or that kind of thing—to be specific it’ll be like about what people are wearing or y’know, if I’ve had a friend fall over and then that becomes the joke that the DJ will run with and I think that can get a bit tiring. Whereas say if we go to like District or Kitchen Street, they’re places where I would not expect that to happen. So I’ve felt more comfortable there. I don’t think everybody has felt comfortable there—I think it’s good that there’s maybe more of a variety because I don’t think that appeals to everyone but I do think those spaces don’t necessarily always market themselves to a queer audience, but I feel quite comfortable there. Again it does depend on what event is going on but like, I go to Beers for Queers at District, I know that Eat Me and Preach is put on there. Yeah I feel around the student areas say like Smithdown Road I do feel comfortable generally there, I went to some kind of poetry performance night there the other week and felt comfortable enough but I don’t go there that often really. On the other hand like, other parts of town I still think you do have to think twice—I don’t try to limit myself from going but, I have heard say like just from second hand accounts someone who I used to work with in town, he said that a bouncer made comments about his earring when they were going into a club. Other places I’ve heard can be…y’know, more picky about who goes in. So yeah, I wouldn’t say that all of town is a safe space really. Which is a shame. 

Int.: What would you like to see change or do you think there’s change still needed about the queer scene in Liverpool?

Tom: Yeah, I definitely think you can always look at things that should be changed. I think that…

Int.: I guess not even just the Queer scene, maybe Liverpool more as a whole in terms of being queer.

Tom: I’d like to see…I think it can be hard for people in some communities in Liverpool to feel like those spaces can be for them and to have their involvement. I live closer to town now and I think that I feel more…it’s more accessible to go to things in town. But I think, say where I grew up in Fazakerly, it just doesn’t feel like there’s much of an outreach. I always say with Liverpool it is like a family member in that it frustrates the hell out of me, but I still like have such an attachment to it and I can’t imagine not having that attachment but it really is difficult sometimes, and it’s a really frustrating place. I think accessibility…it still feels a bit of a divide between say like students and people who like maybe have got like a bit more money or, I think some real working class parts of the city can still feel a bit cut off with what spaces they use and it can sometimes just feel like a duel city where some people go some places, some people go other places and it doesn't really mix much. So I think anything that encourages more of getting all kinds of people involved is a good thing. I think lots of the spaces as well still skew white which is something that should change because it should just reflect y’know the make up of the city. I like that there’s a gay town, and I like that…I think say like that the Baltic Triangle do—I still think of that as some kind of gay town as well cause there is enough going on there that it does feel like that but I think, it would still be good to…to have stuff going on in other parts of town as well just so it felt more spread out. I think just a continuation of what has been happening with people seeming to set up things and I think there is still a bit of a DIY attitude to it which is good. If that could be seen even more would be great. Like I said I didn’t interact much when I was in school, I would like to think that kids now in school would have more of an idea of “oh there’s this youth group I can go to” I mean, some of the things I can talk about were there when I was there [younger] I just didn’t know GYRO and other spaces had been there a long time, I just didn’t know about them. I think some kind of outreach or things that bring kids into what’s going on and makes them feel that they can set up anything that isn’t there and get involved would be good. Oh and just one more thing! More spaces not to do—and this sounds so…cause all my focus is often on the nightlife side of things and I do love it—more that isn’t about that would be great. And we’ve talked about that before and I think it’s definitely true, just any kind of space, doesn’t have to be about drink and whatever else. Yeah daytime things that would be great.

Int.: Yeah for sure. What are the things that you like about the queer community and do you think there is room for change?

Tom: I like that you can go, I would say anywhere, pretty much, in the world, or anywhere that I’ve been, obviously it will be different, but I do like that there’s that kind of connection that you can have with people just through your experience of being queer. Obviously it’s not the same everywhere and you do learn different things but, I do always feel I kind of—when people say is there even such a thing as a community, I definitely think there is and I think it’s just a shared kind of connection. It’s sometimes hard to put your finger on but that’s what I like. I think things like this, say recording our past and our history is important because I think it can get lost. That’s definitely like, outside of Liverpool but even in the case of Liverpool, it’s even things like say, the old gay town used to be where Clayton Square is now. I don’t know much about it and I’ve only found things out by seeing things in the museum or talking to some older people who talk about that. That so easily could get lost if it’s not—if those stories aren’t told. I think that goes for a lot of places like, I’m glad that there’s more…voices in arts and film and music and stuff, that are telling our stories and I think that’s something that I’d wanna see more of. Also not just the same stories being told, obviously the focus has been on gay men, white men, white gay men. And seeing more things kind of recently that are telling other stories I think is really good, more of that would be good. I just think I’d like to see more of a connect between generations as well. As that’s happened to me more, I always feel like you learn so much more through that and I wanna see that happen more like, putting younger people—like I think the fact that we’re having these conversations younger and younger is great and I think connecting people together across generations is something that will be good. 

Int.: How do you feel about the development of the queer or LGBTQIA+ community and what do you think of labels like, would you identify as queer or would you identify as a gay man?

Tom: Yeah I think I would…I definitely identify as a queer gay man, gay being my sexuality, queer male my gender identity, because those are the things that…they are convenient, it fits me better than other labels do. So I don’t have…I don’t have too much of a bad relationship with like others but I do also classify myself as queer, again because I’d say that is what I think—queerness is what connects me to those other labels that don’t fit me, but queer does fit both of us or whoever else. I think, also, queer is a really positive term because it almost forces people to look outside of what does get the most attention which, say when we say like gay bar or whatever else, queer kind of makes you take that second to step back and say no wait it’s about more than just gay. I think the focus on the trans movement has been a really positive thing and overdue and I’m always learning and I think the fact that we’re using terms like queer is helping me and other people to learn and yeah I think it’s a good thing—the one thing that I’ll just throw in there, I don’t know if it’s applicable really but, I think having spent some time in other countries I am wary that I don’t want the narrative going forward to be only coming from say, America, UK, kind of these quote ‘western ideas’ because I think it can take on a bit of a patronising tone when other countries and other cultures have had their own concepts of identities, of gender, sexuality, identity, sometimes a lot have been established for longer than we have so, as much as I think global kind of queer movement is a really good thing, it does need to take a step back sometimes and think how can we learn from other cultures and give them space to decide on where that is going. Because sometimes I think we can overstep on things that are already there and established in their own way. 

Int.: You were talking earlier about how, when you were realising that you weren’t straight and that you were identifying more with gay things in the media that were happening. How do you think recently the public perception of gay icons and queer culture is—do you think that we’ve…we’re going somewhere better with the representation?

Tom: I do think that it’s, ahh…it’s a tough one. I do think it’s getting better. I do think that there’s…there doesn’t have to be as much of an excuse to have a storyline say in a tv show that isn’t a straight, regular storyline. I now know that I can watch something and a character can come along that is a lesbian or, has a different kind of relationship set up or whatever and it isn't so much of a surprise to see that—oh they’ve included this and they don't have to market it specifically as that [an LGBT show/story] which is really healthy. Again I think that’s…there’s definitely still more to go with representation. I do think it’s really still behind on trans voices, that might partly be that I'm not seeking out enough variety in what I’m watching and listening to, but I do just think it’s just not in the mainstream yet as much as people you meet outside of the media. I think as well there’s been some questions about the like, the whole gay icon thing has come under questioning, which has been good. I’ve learnt a bit about it, sexism in the gay community and the  kind of expectations we put on these icons and stuff. I think that’s something that…there’s more conversations about it that you can also reflect and say, yeah what can we do better and what can we challenge about patterns of thinking that we’ve fallen into. So that’s been interesting. But again—the other thing I think is, I dunno what it is and this is probably not relevant, albeit something that interests me, there’s some kind of thing that often falls into like…icons in the queer community and people we look up to that I can’t always put my finger on it. Say if you focus on music for example just cause that’s something that I’m really into, there’s some weird thing I’ve found where I listen to say like a pop song and there’s some kind of quality to it that appeals to me and I often know that it will appeal to my queer friends and I just can’t figure out why and I don’t know what it is—

Int.: There’s a queer musical note!

Tom: YES! There must be some kind of secret thing going on in there that I just don’t know what it is and it just appeals and that’s something that I’m really interested in that I’d wanna look into more, but I don’t know what that’s to do with but that’s just something—yeah. 

Int.: We need more research on the queer note—

Tom: Yeah! Is it ‘la’ or is it ‘fa’ [both laugh]

Int.: Okay so just as a finishing note, if you had one message to your younger self or the younger queer community what would that be?

Tom: [Long pause]…ooh…I would say…always try and do it your own way like, definitely draw from your peers and like draw support where you need but also look to yourself and don’t feel like you have to be queer in any way that’s already defined because people have been and will always be doing it in a different way. Being a part of a community doesn’t mean you have to do—be a certain way. You can make queerness what it is just by being you. And also just don’t…don’t stop yourself from meeting different people, think of it as a kind of invite to a club that just opens up your whole life to so many different experiences that you should feel so lucky to get the chance to have them, I think it’s sad when you see, not everyone, but some people can stick to people like themselves even within the queer community and the fact is it is something that makes us different, so to see that within the community can be a bit sad, so I’d always just say meet and talk to people who are different to you within the community and just try and have as many different experiences as you can.