Int.: Ok so we’ll just start with where you were born and where you grew up? 

Paul: I was born in Liverpool and grew up in Halewood, so Knowsley, Liverpool and spent most of my teenage years in Halewood until I went to University. 

Int.: So, when did you realise that you were gay?

Paul: Erm… it’s a really hard one because I don’t have like a dead clear memory of that light bulb moment, but I do know, definitely in primary school I knew there was something different. Even before that in infants school I was like - I liked girl things and I liked boy things but I think other people had realised before me and I had just remember people sort of like, erm,… giving me stick for playing skipping and stuff like that. It didn’t twig until I probably got into juniors schools and thinking back now when you got crushes on teachers or other boys but you don’t really know what it means but I knew for definite, around about 10 or 11 then that’s when it really hit but I was in total denial. Yeah. 

Int.: How long did it take you to just accept it?

Paul: Oh Jesus! [Laughs] I probably didn’t accept it until I was in my late 20s. Even when I was at University, I was hiding it. I went to Uni with erm… about 8 – 10 people from the same school. We all went to Sheffield Uni for some reason and there was only one person out of that who knew I was gay, and I wasn’t out to anyone else. So even that, just hiding it all the time just sort of like made it difficult for me to accept it to myself but right through, junior school, senior school, sixth form, Uni - I couldn’t accept it. Only when I went to Uni did I realise there was gay places that you could go to that had queer nights on but even then, it was like, it was… because I couldn’t accept it myself it was scary going. It sounds stupid now, but it was like yeah - so again I don’t know the moment when I realised I was and I don’t know the moment when I realised I accepted it but I think when I sort of like - there was queer indie nights started in the 90s… there was Poptastic in Liverpool, there was Pop Stars in London, there was Poptastic in Manchester… and then when I started going to them and I realised it wasn’t just the usual - I didn’t really like the traditional gay scene, the more campy, high energy dance stuff. I just didn’t fit in with that crowd, I never looked right… I never feel like I looked right, I just felt judged by that place all the time. And when I found punk, indie kids and riot grrrl and stuff like that and I was like Yeah! This is me. Then that kind of community made me think - feel a little bit more proud of myself and made me be little bit more accepting of who I was because I felt different even in that gay community in, when I was in Sheffield, that was the first time I’d ever gone to a gay pub or a gay club and I was just like I don’t fit in here neither[laughs] So I already felt like I didn’t fit in and then I went to gay places and I felt I didn’t fit in and - it was the music, the music basically I just couldn’t bare it. I love it all now like [laughs] but I think even that I had a - because I couldn’t accept it in myself and I had a real push away against, like anything that could be perceived as camp and it was my own internalised homophobia. I know all that now, but I didn’t understand it all at the time, but I hated anything that was like meant to be or signified that you could potentially be gay. Even though I know that indie pop, punk, queercore and riot grrrl has all its roots in queerness and that, alternative, but yeah, I was literally trying to move away from anything gay. 

Int.: When you accepted it what were your safe spaces? Like, this is where I feel most visible and ok to be myself. 

Paul: At the time, it was Manchester. It didn’t feel as like erm… There wasn’t as many queer nights on in Liverpool. There were a few gay ones but again I just didn’t like them particularly they all felt like hook up joints, which there’s nothing wrong with that… But I didn’t feel comfortable in places like The Mazzy [The Masquerade], The Lisbon [pause] There was, at the time, a place called Mutt’s Nuts in Manchester which had Poptastic on but that’s where I met all my friends that I’ve got now. I didn’t know any other - I knew one gay person from Uni. It was only when I met all my other mates now who went to the same place, that was our safe place. I used to go to Manchester all the time, not necessarily on - we went a bit on Canal Street but this was like one club that was just off Canal Street, off Princess Street and again that was like indie, they had some more, I suppose traditionally camper nights but they had the more indie rock room. That was specifically playing the kind of music that I really loved.

They had that a little bit in erm…[pause] there used to be a club called The Escape which is by like where Liverpool One is and stuff like that now and when they put Poptastic on, it wasn’t the same because there wasn’t as many indie kids there but they used to have a little tiny bit and for a little while that felt like a safe space but you never felt safe coming out of there, never. 

In Manchester I felt safe coming out because - maybe because not as many people knew me, but also because it was close to the gay village, it felt a little bit more community. But this was just a little club, over there and when you came out on the street you literally felt like you just needed to get away from there in case anyone targets you. I don’t think there was many, for me, erm…90s/2000s, I don’t think there was loads of safe queer spaces, even sometimes coming out The Lisbon, coming out The Mazzy, you’d be y’know, contending with people who’d be potentially were throwing comments at you. Me and my mates were quite, I suppose, like uh a little bit… uh It’s insane now but a little bit alternative looking in that space so you got like stick for being gay and you also got stick for being a goth for like [laughs] oh just for looking like a little bit different. I’ve just confessed to being a goth! Oh my god! [laughs].

Int.: Hahahah, I’ve got it on recording. Paul is a goth. [laughs] I’m gonna spread it. [laughs]. So, going back to you not being out through teenage years and Uni, was it all just about your perception of what gay was or was it also to do with outside perceptions? 

Paul: I think it was… I think the outside perceptions affected the inside perceptions and again I only know that with hindsight. At the time I thought there was something wrong with me and it significantly affected my mental health because you were getting the constant message that you were, y’know, being gay was not right and there was no real representation, no real positive representation in the media - on TV, in newspapers. As I say, I grew up in Halewood and any little bit of difference in Halewood was sort of like, you stood out like a sore thumb. Again, if you, erm…wore the wrong trainees, or you’re a boy and you wore a little bit of eyeliner or like nail varnish or anything like that you’d just get stick. So at the time I wanted to look different and I wanted to wear, what I wanted to wear and I felt ok but as soon as I stepped out the door and it could just be one comment and sometimes I felt ok to deal with it and then other times it would just shake me, my whole confidence, but it didn’t stop me from wanting to wear what I wanted to wear, be who I wanted to be but that constant kind of, judgement just made me feel -  what is it about me that is wrong? What is it about me that makes me feel this way and I think those outside things like, what I was thinking the people who are closest to me, what would they think? Because If I felt it was bad and I was that person, what would my family think, even my friends from school, what would they think? 

When I came out to my friends in school no one really batted on eyelid and that is really quite long gone but I’d carried that fear for quite a long time and when I look back on it now no one - I didn’t know anyone who was gay. I didn’t know anything that was said positive about being gay, it was always seen as a detriment, it was always seen to be something to be ashamed of. The only things I’d ever really seen was, again it was only - and I hate using this word now because I don’t see it as a bad thing now but it was how I felt at the time, but the only things you’d see on telly was camp stereotypes and then they were often - they were a joke and a laugh and people liked them but they were also like desexualised and used sometimes as a bit of the butt of jokes and that kind of thing and I didn’t want to be the butt of a joke. 

So I think it was predominantly outside stuff, I think I said that at the beginning but I think that outside stuff, I know now that outside stuff affected me internally and at the time it was my internal monolog that was going through my head that there was something wrong with me and that made me erm…depressed, anxious all those kinds of things. 

Int.: So, when you did come out, did you feel more like, more at ease with all of those things?

Paul: Yeah, I think, [pause] I sort of like, came out in stages. My first coming out was actually in sixth form is was my best friend who erm… he’s got a wife and two kids and stuff like that, but we were like so close at the time and used to go to all gigs together and spend loads of time together and we were just friends there wasn’t anything - but I came out to him and I remember him going, in sixth form on a field by SFX school and he was going out with some girl and I’d always felt pressure because there was always someone trying to push you to go out with girls and that was one of the semi-good things about going to an all-boys school [laughs] there wasn’t that, but I was even talking about it yesterday I went to SFX and then erm…sort of like….St. Julies was down the road and when people started getting at that age, where they wanted to get with girls and all my mates were trying to do the same thing, I used to just miss the bus on purpose because I just couldn’t be bothered dealing with all that. But when I first came out it wasn’t a good thing….it didn’t feel - it went well and my mates accepted it, but I was just like crying and dead upset by it, it was really quite like… it was good to have said it and have someone who knew it but I felt I’d put pressure on them to keep that secret as well because I didn’t want them to tell anyone else and then even though I’d trusted them implicitly 100% there was still always that doubt that it would to slip out and someone else would know and I wasn’t ready for other people to know at that time. 

And then the next time I came out was at University. I met one of my best friends now. Who, we joke about it now, but I knew he was gay, but he wasn’t out. I had pictures of like Roy Keane and footballers and stuff all over my wall…

Int.: Steven Gerrard 

Paul: And I love football but…Steven Gerrard definitely yeah, but people didn’t question Steven Gerrard because I was from Liverpool but when people used to come into my room and say “Why’ve you got a picture of Roy Keane up?” and I used to be like “Oh I love his football skills.” [laughs] I used to have to blag it, and that was true, but I also thought he was fit as well. My other friend had met this other guy, so I went I know he’s gay, I know he’s gay and again it was like, Oh my god, someone who’s gay someone, who’s gay and like we got on with him really well and one night we were out I told him and he didn’t say it back and I was devastated because like - Fuck, have I got this wrong? And he’s not really gay, and then like it was only 8-12 months later that he finally came out as well… but then worried, he was - I suppose it’s just the same difficulties in coming out. 

And then after that I still wasn’t out properly. None of my family knew. I only had a - that friend from University, that was the only other gay person I knew, apart from a couple of people I’d met randomly, and I’d only knew them for a little bit, but they weren’t really friends. Erm… and then I came back to Liverpool from Uni and my friend was from Chichester and he went to Germany and he was sort of like, doing some travelling and when I came back to Halewood I just went straight back in the closet, like totally. There was only one person, well there was my friend from school, but I didn’t really see them that much and then erm…there was my friend whose family was from Chichester at the time which to me was like, the other side of the country.  Yeah so no one - again I went back in the closet then. But then when I started like coming out into town - it was just like I had to get out. I used to go to Manchester on my own, I used to come into Liverpool on my own and I met my friends, funnily enough one of my best friends now lived round the corner from me but we never knew each other he’s a bit younger than me. But then when I met him and they were into Bikini Kill, Le Tigre, erm… Babes in Toyland all that kind of music and we bonded over music rather than being gay and then that just opened up a whole group of friends that I met from Manchester and then we used to go to Manchester all the time and I was out to all them, so I was out to all of my friends. I was still in the closet in work I never, until I started doing LGBT work, 5 or 6 years ago, I was never out to anyone in work. 

Int.: Really? 

Paul: Yeah don’t sound so surprised Kay! [Laughs]

Int.: I think it’s more because you come across very confident and confident in yourself so It’s surprising. 

Paul: I think it’s because, I love working with LGBT young people because they have given me the confidence to be myself. Only literally when I - because it was in Warrington when I started doing the LGBT group in Warrington, and I was trying to get them to be confident and proud in themselves but I wasn’t myself, well I was but I wasn’t out to - I was worried about people in work knowing. People knew but it was never said. Even like, I’d worked with people for like 8 to 10 years and they didn’t know I had a partner. [laughs] It sounds so bizarre now that I think about it it’s like, why, why, but I think that’s all from that fear that had been instilled in me right up, like I said I knew from like 5/6, I didn’t know the words but I knew, I definitely knew from 10 or 11 and then I couldn’t really be out-out until in my late 20s so for over 10 or 15 years I’d carried that fear and that secret of people finding out and it doesn’t go away, just doesn’t go away overnight. 

Even though you know deep down that people might be ok, you’ve still got the fear that people won’t be ok, and some people are not ok. It was also the jobs that I was doing, I worked in residential social care, I worked with kids in care, I worked with - as a drug and alcohol worker with some quite, y’know sort of, outwardly tough kids and you couldn’t be gay and out with them. Even though people would ask you questions, and I denied it all the time, or I just fudged the response and tried to deflect it and stuff like that. I feel as though I came out and went back in, came out and went back in and then only over the last 5 – 6 years, apart from my friends, do I feel like I’m properly out. I can’t even remember when my family found out, [laughs] I can’t. It was never, it wasn’t like, again it sounds bizarre, but I’ve never properly, never spoke about it to my Mum and Dad, never. 

Int.: Really, still?

Paul: Yeah never said the words to me Mum and Dad - they know, but I’ve never properly come out to them. They know I’ve got a Boyfriend, they know like erm…. well they don’t even call him a Boyfriend but like [laughs] but I’ve never had that experience of coming out to my family. I have my Sisters and my Brother, only because my Sister asked once and that was it, my Sister told my Brother and they were all fine but I’ve never like said the words to my Mum and Dad. [Laughs]

Int.: But In a way, does it feel you like you need to?

Paul: No. I don’t need to, and sometimes that feels like, more like the more positive thing I’ve just been like erm… accepted for who I am. 

Int.: Yeah, well it’s like why do gay people have to come out? Like if you’re straight you never have to go up to your Mum and Dad… “By the way, I like the opposite gender.”

Paul: Yeah exactly, yeah.

Int.: So not needing to is quite nice actually. 

Paul: It’s just happened organically and naturally. I don’t know how that’s happened that way but… [laughs]

Int.: Cool, so how has the queer scene in Liverpool changed for you over time? What have you noticed in the past?

Paul: I think It’s more diverse. I think it’s like, erm… I always felt it was like very erm… cheap, low, tackier Manchester and we only had a couple of tiny little places that just catered for the same kind crowd and the same kind of music. They’ve got like - I love some of those places now because I know the history of them and how they have sort of like been little bastions of safety for people and how they’ve sort of like, managed to stay open in really difficult and tough times and they’ve always, things like The Lisbon and The Mazzy they’ve just always been there erm…but I think, I think there’ s sort of more alternative things going on that are not just scene based. So, I’ve never, I don’t even know when it started but when I was younger there was never anything like the Liverpool Queer Collective, there was never anything like the Merseyside LGBT social meet up group or anything like that. Didn’t even - no one even talked about trans groups or trans support or anything like that. The fact that I now know that there’s all these different pockets of support, to me they’re part of the scene, y’know the queer community, it’s not just about the going out kind of stuff. 

When I was around - the first time my friend who I was talking about before who came out to me and was from Chichester, came to Liverpool and he’d just moved to London and he came to Liverpool and he was like “Where’s all the gay stuff?” and I was like “I don’t know!” [laughs] I literally didn’t even know where The Lisbon was, I didn’t know nothing because I wasn’t looking for it at that time particularly in Liverpool because I didn’t want, there was always the risk of someone seeing you or - I didn’t know queer people in Liverpool so like, when he came over and again this sounds so ancient and bizarre, we rang the Gay and Lesbian Helpline [laughs] That’s what you used to do! [laughs] 

Int.: You couldn’t whip out your phone and google.

Paul: Yeah, they told us about a bar, which was I think called Paco’s at the time, I think it’s round by Jupiter’s and that. I think it might actually be Jupiter’s now, but it was like erm… a dive. They told us where it was and I didn’t know the street [laughs] so we literally, this is my first experience we asked someone in the street, and I’m like - They know where we’re going, they know where we’re going - we asked for the name of the road and then when we got there it just felt like it was, there was like about -  it was really old, it was really old at the time… I’d probably be that old person now, but it was like really old and then a couple of rent boys on the corner [laughs] and that’s it but even then, that’s what it was. To me that felt like what the scene was at the time there was them little bars that were really hidden away down in basements like erm… The Curzon. The first time I went to The Curzon there was porn everywhere and I was like What the fuck is this? It was just - I suppose it was good because it was unapologetic, it was so dark, it was down a back street. I’m sneaking down here to like, hide away and you look down in a basement no windows or anything, so which added a little bit to - it was quite exciting. Then also when you step outside you felt more vulnerable because you’d been hidden away in this tiny little place and it was obvious where you were if people had seen you. So then over a bit of time I think, it might have been like 2000s I can’t remember the exact date, when they tried to have a few more alternatives, they had The Escape that did a little bit more of an indie night, I think it was a bit of an attempt to do something a little bit different and it worked for a bit but I don’t think the crowd in Liverpool was big enough or the venues weren’t right. So, I then didn’t really go. My mates DJ-ed a bit on those nights that tried to come up at that time, there was The End, there was The Escape, there was some nights like The Pink Parrots in Mardi Gras kind of thing, but to me we had a little bit more of a kind of underground indie, underground gay thing even though it wasn’t official. There was a [pause] Me and my friends and then their friends and stuff - I knew they were all gay and they were all queer but they didn’t… we might have gone to The Lisbon for one drink just to have a look and see what was going on and stuff but you wouldn’t go and spend your night there. You’d go to places like Le Bateau, you’d go to like, The Krazy House. You’d go to the places that were playing the music that you loved erm…but it was, because I knew a lot of people at the time who were gay it felt like a little bit of your own little pocket of a queer scene even though it wasn’t. I got bottled in The Krazy House for kissing a guy, I got bottle threw on my head, like years ago and it was literally one of those moments where you felt… because you felt like that was your little place in your scene, you felt safe but you could… once you let your guard down, you just didn’t know who was around you in terms of like being homophobic. 

So at that time you had like The Lisbon which you’d go for a few drinks and it didn’t even stay open dead late and then your choice was to always go to somewhere like G Bar which was down in the basement which was like ok sometimes but it was like 6/7 o’clock in the morning it was dance music, very druggy erm… and was sort of like [pause] it was all hidden again there wasn’t anything that was, there wasn’t anything that was different. Whereas now I feel like you’ve got nights like Sonic Yootha, which are queer nights but they’re also a bit -  it’s a hard balance as well because I want a queer night to be a queer night, I don’t want it - when it starts attracting to many straights [laughs] then it just takes it away and like, there’s been a couple of times when I’ve been in Sonic Yootha even and it’s got really popular and then I haven’t felt particularly safe around certain people. I still think it’s fantastic that we’ve got things like Eat, Me and Preach, The Queer Collective erm,… you’ve got Sonic Yootha and as I said the other things like support groups like Spirit Level, our own groups as well like GYRO, The Action Youth, LGBT reading groups and stuff like that so I think to me that feels really different. 

Int.: Yeah. We talked little bit about the things that used to be around and stuff, is there anything that you miss about Liverpool’s queer scene from then? Do you miss any of those little dives? [laughs] 

Paul: Do you know what I do. I wouldn’t - Sonic Yootha’s taking on a bit of it in a different way, but I miss like the Poptastic nights, which were at the time, apart from Pop Stars in London and the same Poptastic night in Manchester there wasn’t anything that was an alternative queer night and even like, when it was like they did the Pop Stars in Liverpool they had to do it in two ways they had the more traditional pop room and then they had the indie room that was always smaller because it was so small and because it was so new and because it was sort of like a little crowd you felt like really part of something that was happening even though it never really took off that massively and it did a little bit because they had like, the indie room got bigger, they moved to different venues, it was on a little bit more often erm… that kind of being a part of something as it’s just starting… that kind of thing I miss and also something that’s like a little bit, it’s not popular and people looked down on it a little bit but that felt cooler to do that and to be like Fuck off, all youse in your pop room and you’d be like waiting for Placebo or The Smiths or Bikini Kill or something like that to come on it was absolutely amazing because you never heard that somewhere else and I know Sonic Yootha has some of that but I think there’s just a little bit of some queer culture that’s a bit mainstream. Even drag, that’s so mainstream now. I know Eat, Me and Preach is doing something fantastic and something so different and I think that’s brilliant but I miss the aspect of… it’s that two way thing, that acceptance is great but also something that’s like, obviously I don’t want to not be accepted but something that feels like it’s pushing the boundaries a little bit and not trying to attract a mainstream audience. 

Int.: There’s things like - What bar is it that’s the one that’s Ru Paul’s Drag Race themed? 

Paul: Is it Out Bar?

Int.: Is it Out because Out and OMG both opened at the same time and I always forget which one is which?

Paul: Oh yeah, I’ve never been into them, yeah. 

Int.: But yeah the Ru Paul’s Drag Race one just attracts a straight crowd because of how mainstream Ru Paul’s Drag Race has become, which is great that it is, but then you go to a space that you think is queer and you walk in and it’s just a lot of straight people, which is great y’know I’ll go into any bar, but when you’re specifically looking for somewhere that is queer and you walk in and you’re surrounded by straight people and you’re like Hmmm, where’s my space?

Paul: Yeah exactly. I think like, erm…thinking about Manchester… When we used to go to Manchester all the time obviously we’d go to certain nights they used to have like Legends, Homo Electric and they’ve gone, Legends has gone in Manchester it was an amazing venue but you’d still be able to go down Canal Street and it would still be quite gay and further and further down the line, you’d go there on a Saturday night and it was just hen parties. 

Int.: Mm, I hate that. 

Paul: It was just like you’d be going to Fearfoster and you’d be thinking no one looks gay, not that everyone has to look gay, but it’s doesn’t look - it looks so straight.

Int.: Well it becomes entertainment for straight people which isn’t right. 

Paul: That’s what my mates used to say, “Oh have you come to see the animals?” “Have you come to the zoo”. That’s what it was like. I’ve even sat on Canal Street  and seen people sitting on the street laughing at other people either for the way they’re dressed, the way they look, presuming what their identity is and it’s meant to be a safe queer space and you’re sitting there seeing other people laugh at other people and I know that the queer community has never been this eutopia where everyone loves each other and everyone gets on with each other, that’s why I hated certain aspects of it when I was younger because it was so bitchy and you had to wear the right clothes, you have to look the right way and again you’d try, thinking you’re a bit more alternative or being into more alternative things and you weren’t wearing Gucci or Prada and stuff like that and it was just a bit like, you could feel that. So, it wasn’t like you could just go out on the queer scene and everything would be ok. 

I think the difference in the language is interesting, so I identify as gay and when I say the gay scene I’d think of something different than queer because I think queer is a bit more alternative, it’s a bit more pushing the boundaries, it’s a bit less mainstream. Whereas gay is like, it’s still different but there’s a bit more assimilation into, like I don’t know it’s a bit too light for me it’s sort of a bit stereo typical and maybe that kind of bit that attracts more of the mainstream kind of like Oh this is nice, fluffy, gay and camp and we’ll go and spin around to Kylie or whatever which is ok I love that and I have no problem with that but it’s those, it seems like those kind of gay nights are the ones that straight hetero people, particularly straight hetero girls seem to like and it might be because then it’s a safe space for them which says a lot about how safe they feel in more traditionally straight environments that are very male dominated, very kind of sexist, machismo all that kind of stuff so they are probably looking for their own safe space a bit but when they come into queer spaces and overtake it or sort of judge people and are sort of like being bitchy about how people look then it’s like, no that makes it feel like it’s no longer a queer safe space. 

Int.: Yeah like it’s nice that they feel safe there but you know, I’ve also - as much as they feel safe there, I then feel less safe there because then I’ll have them come up to me and go “By the way I’m not a lesbian” and it’s like “I didn’t ask”. You feel like now you’re a predator and it’s like, but I’m in my space and you’ve come in here and…Agh! I don’t want any of that.

Paul: Well I’ve done it where, I’ve got my friends are straight and when my partner, all of his friends are straight girls but they all went out on the queer scene because they either have queer family or they just grew up on that scene but then when they then,… they’re not going to the queer scene for entertainment they’re going to the queer scene because they are queer allies they’ve been part of that. They are going because they like the style, the safety, the music all those kind of things, they like a different alternative place, but even when they like, [pause] brought like friends of friends who’ve been like, obviously uncomfortable in a queer space because they think someone is going to come on to them because obviously all gay people want to come on to someone who is straight, don’t they? Whether it’s like, then they’ve got boyfriends and brought their boyfriends into queer spaces and then I’ve not felt safe and comfortable to be myself in my own space because obviously they have felt uncomfortable as well so it’s a bit of a strange one sometimes between it wanting to be ok and accepting but then not just being, as you say, not being a form of entertainment for other people to like come into and invade that space a little bit because they’ve got loads of other spaces that they can go to as well. 

Int.: Have you, with the queer scene sort of expanding in Liverpool, have you noticed there being more visibly queer people, open and just you know, hiding less and in like back alley basement clubs and that? I mean I hate saying that because it should mean that you have to look queer to be queer, but y’know, seeing people holding hands or y’know, wearing a pin or a flag or something. 

Paul: I think… I think Liverpool is a fabulous and strange place all at the same time because I think like Liverpool for a kind of very straight fashion and an alternative fashion, I think you can see that everywhere. How people dress and how visibly different some people are and I don’t always associate that just with queerness because that’s just about style and Liverpool’s, it’s had a very - when I grew up, as I said the alternative scene was always better than the queer scene for me. So that was still about, you know about looking a bit different and there’s a thin line between alternative and queer and punk and queercore and that kind of thing. So I think for me there’s always been,…I’ve always got my eyes peeled [laugh] for those kind of things because I love when I see someone who just looks fabulous and amazing and again I don’t see that as just queer, it’s just it can be anything really it’s just Liverpool has always been good for that kind of visibility but only in the centre of town though not anywhere else, like I wouldn’t see that in Halewood and I don’t - I live in West Derby and I still sometimes, well all the time, I watch what I wear when I go to the pub. I don’t dress particularly as alternative as I did when I was younger but I still always feel like I stand out in the pubs in West Derby and I won’t wear nail varnish. One of my only main [laughs] remnants of being a goth is nail varnish so I just like to paint my nails like so normally only when I’m going on a proper night out I’ll do that but there’s been nights when I’ve been - the next night we’re going out or the next day we’re going out and we’re going for a couple of drinks in a local pub before going out, I always think am I ok to be this visible in another place. So I think that there’s a real difference, and I always felt that when I was younger as well, there’s a real difference between ‘ok to be visible’ in town but then once you get out of town and some places of Liverpool and some places that are not maybe so diverse then that visibility can become a bit of a risk. I think that’s something that I’ve carried with me because when I lived I Halewood and going back to when I first started coming out in town onto whatever was the gay scene then, I would change on the train or I would put make up on on the train and I would always take it off on the way home because I would not feel safe outside of town. Even in town I’d keep my head down, but there was always a difference between how you can be visible in town and outside of town, I don’t think that’s changed loads, I think maybe a little bit and I think some of it has strangely changed because, oh you can quote this if you want but like, straight men just follow gay fashion 10 years later, 10 years later, so that things that you would have got stick for years back when you were gay is now what straight guys are doing. So, there was this whole sort of like, straight guys never ever used to wear makeup loads of straight guys wear makeup now. Whether it’s foundation, concealer…

Int.: Well there’s that whole thing, in the mid 2000’s when guyliner became a big thing. 

Paul: Yeah Russell Brand and stuff like that. But like now like guys looking after their appearance, and that’s not a bad thing, but it goes around because it becomes another thing just to portray another type of beauty and women have been subjected to it for years and men are subjected to it now, having to have a buff body whether you’re gay, whether you’re straight and to me in some scenes in queer scenes in London and some scenes in Manchester, I find it very hard now when I go to some pubs. If I’d just been dropped in a pub and no one was speaking and football wasn’t on and no one was behaving, some gay pubs in Manchester and some pubs in Liverpool in like West Derby the fashion for straight men and gay men is pretty much the same. Or you know there’s very little… and I mean [pause] not alternative queer gay men and I think that clear differentiation between queer and straight is a little more blurred, but I think the visibility aspect, which was your question, [laughs] erm…I still think, that it feels like, to me erm… not a form of protest but form of standing up for your queerness to go out and wear and dress however you want because you still get stick. You still get, well you know I can only talk personally, you still have to watch what you’re wearing. Other people may be able to bat off easily sort of like, you know, I’ve bought loads of more like gender neutral clothes, which I feel ok wearing in the house or maybe like once to Sonic Yootha [laughs] but I wouldn’t come into town wearing then because I don’t feel safe being that alternative during the day in town, but I think that’s more about me. Maybe more about what I’ve grown up with, my age and the old remnants of hiding yourself a bit more, but when I see young people who are out and proud and when I see young people who are holding hands I think they are - they shouldn’t be, but I think they are such inspirational role models, so strong and so sort of like proud and so visible and I think that that’s amazing as well. But I still think there’s a bit more visibility but it’s still think it’s in pockets. Like it’s ok to be visible in the Baltic Triangle and but go over to any of the pubs by Central station or by Lime Street and you’ll still get like… I still have been called queer in the street. I’ve still been told “Oh what’s that bag? What are you wearing?” My mate comes up through town and he lives in town and still gets called queer now and again, as an insult. The visibility is there but there’s still also aspects that make you worry about sometimes your safety as well. 

Int.: Even the road going up to the Action Youth and GYRO and everything, the amount of times I’ve had little things happen and it’s like, I’m literally on my way to do an LGBT session and I’m having this on the way there, and it’s just outside there and then you worry about the young people because they have to walk past this to go to - 

Paul: Yeah If I think that as a grown adult, what would young people who are just coming out to themselves and just exploring their identity - I know what it’s like to walk out of your door and feel nice, feel confident and then have one person or two people say something and then it just knocks how you feel for the week, the day, longer, whatever it might be. I used to live in erm… just off Queens Drive and it became a joke in the end, because when I used to be walking down to West Derby village nearly every single time I’d get someone saying something about what I was wearing or someone shout something out of a car, the amount of time I’ve had someone either laugh or as they’ve driven… it sounds crazy now and it’s not so long ago, the amount of people who’ve laughed or lads who have shouted at cars at me, who’ve literally called me a queer or a fag or erm…I was going to a gig in Manchester and these guys drove past and called me a ‘batty boy’ and then each time I still question myself and I go to…What is it? My partners a bit more, I suppose looks a bit - oh I hate saying this but he probably looks a bit more straighter than me. … So I’ve even been walking down the streets and I’ve said “What is it?” and I’ve even said “I don’t even think I look that gay today” so to have to say that and he says “Just ignore it and forget it” but sometimes I can and other times I’m like no, I don’t get what it is that’s put a bit of a target on my head. 

Int.: What are your safe spaces now in Liverpool, like your go-to’s? 

Paul: Yeah, I probably, even though I probably slagged some of the places off before [laughs] but when I come into town and we want to go to somewhere that is gay or queer erm… The Lisbon is always a good place to start and it always has been, like I said before even when I used to go to Le Bateau and stuff like that, we’d go to The Lisbon first and have a few drinks there and then come in. So, I always think of places like The Lisbon and The Mazzy and stuff like that as safe spaces in town. Other places like the Baltic Triangle, I mentioned that before because it’s got more of an alternative vibe to it so I think when some where’s got some sort of crossover between alternative and queer there’s less differentiation between how you should look and what you should wear. I feel more comfortable in those places even though they aren’t traditionally queer I won’t worry so much about what I’m wearing if I go the Camp and Furnace or places like Kitchen Street, Sonic Yootha and stuff like that. They’re all really, I love Sonic Yootha, well Kitchen Street anything that’s going on there the venue feels really safe. You’ve got the little court yard, you’ve got the inside, it’s sort of far enough away to not be in the main of town but it’s not like, it doesn’t feel as hidden as places used to be, all downstairs or all in a basement and stuff like that. They’re predominantly more the safe spaces that we see in town but I’m thinking of like out of town, I don’t feel particularly…I dunno if it’s maybe my age and stuff like that but I don’t - I’m not apologetic and I don’t feel particularly unsafe where I go, even though I said that I’ll watch what I wear and stuff but not to the degree where I feel like I’m compromising myself too much. So I love to watch football and I’ll go to any pub in anywhere where I live and I will go and watch the football as long as I’ve got a seat and I’m sort of like, watching Liverpool and I feel comfortable, I will feel relatively safe in those spaces. There’s been like the odd, odd occasion that I’ve been erm… outside a pub like The Jolly Miller and stuff like that and someone’s said something and then my mate when they’re a little bit drunk, she’s decided that it’s been her role to defend me and I could have ignored it so it’s like sometimes those kind of things, little things, can just kick off but I think generally most of the safe spaces are in town if I’m talking about a night being queer or somewhere you totally being able to be yourself but I feel like…

Int.: Even if there are spaces that aren’t queer that you feel safe, those are just as important as well. 

Paul: Yeah definitely. I think some of them have like gone less and less because there’s more - a lot of the clubs where I used to go to are now like restaurants and bars now, like Le Bateau is now a vegan restaurant, Down the Hatch and stuff like that and obviously I feel safe in there but I don’t class that as you know, going for a meal, that you should friggin’ feel safe, do you know what I mean? [laughs] There’s - to me, there’s a couple more safer queer spaces than alternative ones, if you’d have asked me like maybe 15 years ago I’d have probably been saying more places like Le Bateau like erm…well not quite the The Krazy House.

Int.: Considering you got bottled there?

Paul: Yeah but like erm… I’d be saying more like those kind of alternative nights rather than queer nights but now you can say places like District, Kitchen Street, I know Sonic Yootha’s at Kitchen Street, but I think that’s a particular night as well. I don’t particularly go there that much now, but I think when it first started it felt really nice to have a new safe, alternative queer space where people were actually queer. Where people looked different, dressed different, behaved different. That’s what I want, I want where people can go look, behave, dress however they want and still feel safe and part of the community as well. 

Int.: Is there anything that you’d like to see Liverpool change and improve, within the queer scene and community? 

Paul: I think like erm… even though I don’t… I think Sonic Yootha’s good because it caters for more like a mixed aged crowd and Eat, Me and Preach and stuff like they because they have acts and food I think they cater for a more diverse crowd as well, right up from like 18 to 50 whatever older, and I think that’s good I think that’s brilliant. I think the other side of town and the gay scene, which has still got a you know, it’s still got to cater for that younger poppier kind of like, what it’s always done. OMG and Out Bar it’s great that they’ve got more supposedly gay bars and they’ve tried to, and y’know but they seem like [pause] very queer washed gay, if you know what I mean? I don’t know how else to describe it, it seems what was the gay scene at the time in Manchester, 20 years ago, and I just sort think Is that really what you want? but I dunno how popular they are and I dunno know how sort of like… but they seem like quite student-y, quite straight, quite gay and I’d rather Liverpool be focussing more upon that alternative queer scene and I’m glad that people are. There’s other nights that I’ve not mentioned and I don’t think they’re on as regular, you know at last Pride there was Dirt Disco, was at the bottom of like GBar sort of a bit more of an older I suppose like a bear, leather kind of thing, I think to have that diversity, obviously not my scene but you know [laughs] I’ve got that on record [laughs] but I think to have that more diversity rather than anything being that homogeneous pink, pink OMG kind of thing. Going back to that kind of main stream Ru Paul’s Drag Race themed bar, m-m-maybe 10 years ago that might have been an alternative, I don’t know who runs those bars I know nothing about them so I don’t wanna slag them off too much because it’s better than nothing but I think Liverpool [pause] again it’s hard because it’s about numbers isn’t it, it’s hard because if you’ve got places like London where the number of queer, safe queer spaces have gone it’s absolutely ridiculous and even like XXL which at the moment is at risk of being shut down and even though it’s not my kind of night [pause] and it’s kind of like, but I think it caters and helps for diversity to have those different kind of nights and those nights that are unashamedly about being a part of a niche queer culture I think that’s quite good as well. It has its problems as well because it becomes a bit of a ‘if you don’t fit into that pocket’ then you don’t feel particularly welcomed and safe there as well but I think that places like The Joiners Arms, The Black Cab and all those nights, places in London that I used to go to that were just basically dive bars that were, had amazing DJs, loads of queer people in there, they were dirty as hell and - I meant dirty as in [laughs] as in not clean [laughs] erm… and then they just has some sort of like alternative queer acts on whether it was drag, whether it was like literally someone setting up on stage doing punk music or whatever it was I think to have that kind of thing in Liverpool I think that would be amazing as well. 

Int.: Yeah definitely. There’s no such thing as too much queer stuff. What things do you think the queer community as a whole need to, if at all, need to change or improve on? 

Paul: I think, again I think it goes back to that diversity. I’m probably very, even though I didn’t feel part of that gay scene I can still see where my privilege was in that. I’m a white cis guy erm…and predominantly all the places were white and cis, and I think the majority still are these day, white cis male really. I know like I - my best friend, one of my best friends, she’s a lesbian and she used to come to all the places that we used to come to but there was very few, sometimes there was hardly any lesbians in there. Sometimes it was like, straight, I mean sorry, sometimes gay guys had problems if there were too many lesbians in there because it was more about like, being about gay guys wanting to sort of get off with each other or erm… I dunno, I think Liverpool, like anywhere I think it’s about how do we cater for everyone so I think the [pause] LGBT, I wouldn’t even say the LGBT places because I think most of them only think about the LGB so I think again I don’t know if it represents a lack of diversity, I can’t… Liverpool town centre is quite diverse but it’s very white, male and cis dominated so I think like the, was the question was how should it be different?

Int.: Yeah like what should the community be doing as a whole? 

Paul: Yeah, I don’t have the answers, but I just think how do they cater a little bit more so that trans people feel safe in those spaces. Trans women particularly erm… but you know what trans men as well erm…and people of colour, all those things that are just, they’re not just about Liverpool they are universal really at the moment really. Seeing the stuff you know, the 50th anniversary of Stonewall and there was a big article about gay guys having a problem with black trans women in Stonewall doing a protest and it was like, what the absolute… 

Int.: Oh my god, this is literally, [laughs] are we just replaying 50 years ago?

Paul: Yeah, yeah, but again is goes about like, … I can’t remember who, I think it was a young person who had a banner, used to come to our group and he had a banner at the first Trans Pride in Liverpool and it was, I can’t remember the full, it was something about like, not assimilating, we don’t wanna assimilate into society. I can’t remember the actual… but it was about, no we’ll be queer and we’ll be different and we don’t - we’re not trying to mimic cis-het people erm… but I think some of that, some of what I’ve seen I know I’ve moved off to America but some of what I’ve seen was sort of straight acting and straight looking buff guys and men who have a problem with a trans women of colour coming in to do a protest in a place that it’s whole history is about trans women of colour it’s like yeah, but I think I can’t see in Liverpool where that diversity is catered for potentially.  I don’t - I wouldn’t say - I’ve not been to Sonic Yootha in a while even though you know I think it’s like a safe place, I still need to go y’know to more to Eat, me and preach so I don’t know what the level of diversity is and stuff like that.

Int.: I’d say Eat Me is probably the most diverse of the queer spaces and queer nights that go on. It’s become more of a space where I feel more comfortable going than gay town generic because like you said it is just a lot of gay…boys. 

Paul: And it’s not very diverse is it? 

Int.: Gays and angry drag queens. 

Paul: I think that like catering for that crowd is ok but if everything is just catering for that crowd then you’ve got - you’re meant to have a diverse queer community, but you’ve just got like a very small aspect of the LGB community that are catered for. I think as well that again I think it’s probably universal but also thinking about the older gay community as well and how what spaces are created and curated to make sure that it’s not - that it’s diverse as well and it’s not just about that more teenage, twenty age range as well.

Int.: I think people get stuck in their own like, what things they want and what they like and they can see it and they’ve got it but then they don’t necessarily think about what’s missing for everyone else, why isn’t everyone else coming to these spaces. 

Paul: I think that's what it is, it’s probably really hard to start a new queer night or a new queer space or a new queer group or whatever it might be and  I know - I think Sonic Yootha was 4 years old this weekend and the first ones that they started not many people were going to them and to be able to carry it on must be really difficult but to then cater for something that’s got a smaller population must be difficult but it’s about how to - the places that we’ve got now be more inclusive and again I haven’t got the answers I’ve just sort of like, if there was one thing that people who’ve got more experience of actually developing those aspects of the queer scene the one thing that would be different is that diversity and that age range as well.

Int.: Yeah for sure. How - this is going off on a bit of a tangent here but, how do you think that public perception has changed over the queer community and the gay icons have changed over time?

Paul: I think [pause] it’s probably feels like a bit more of a negative time to be asking those questions now because erm… we’ve seen it, we’ve seen the rise in hate crime, particularly a rise in hate crime towards trans people, trans women I think the public perception is still like gay men as a certain stereotypical trope [pause] when I think about it now and I think about Ryland Clark and again the more sanitised kind of, and again it’s not, I don’t want it to come across as a criticism of anything like that I just think it still seems like that kind of image gets the main representation in the media and I still think it pushes a kind of stereotypical,  erm… a kind of stereotype I can’t think of a better word for it. I think the public perception is, it’s ok to be gay as long as you behave in a certain way, and if you step outside of that - it’s that, you’re ok to gay if you assimilate, you’re ok to be gay if you wanna get married and you wanna have kids and you wanna have a monogamous relationship and get the mortgage and do all that which is great and it’s fine but if you wanna be a little more radical and wanna like blur gender roles a little bit and you wanna sort of push the boundaries of what you wear and push the boundaries of fashion whether it’s for women, men, cis, trans or whatever it might be, I still think that’s really looked down upon and still seen as a little bit scary and a little bit something to be worried about and be afraid of. I still think public perception of gay men is still very dominated about sex and being obsessed with what people get up to in the bedroom which is important but it’s only a small aspect of what most people are but I still think all the things around the controversies in the schools and primary schools it focussed upon sex and no one was talking about sex but as soon as you start talking about gay or queer or LGBT, people go straight to sex and it’s about people and it’s about relationships when you talk about straight people it’s not the first thing that people think about sex [gasp] What kind of sex are they having? Do we have to be worried that kids are being taught about this? but I still think public perception around queer people is all around degeneracy, around sex and I think some of it should - should be unapologetic about like, you know sex, fetish or whatever it might be but I still think it’s like erm… generally in society those kind of things are still frowned upon and for the queer society they are frowned upon even more as well.

Int.: Yeah definitely. So, go back to a positive, what are your favourite things about the queer community? 

Paul: Well going probably on the things - the things that need to be developed and changed upon. I think my favourite things is how diverse it is. If you go into a straight place and you go into a queer place, straight place people to me all wanna look the same and behave the same. I know that’s probably, I don’t wanna come across as the kind of gay who’s cis-hetero-phobic [laughs] because y’know I’m not tarring everyone with the same brush, I mean generally the spaces where most people meet and congregate in the mainstream spaces, if you look a little bit different or you stand out a little bit different then you stand out as a sore thumb. Whereas in a queer space, you want - people wanna look different, people wanna stand out and I just think that’s amazing. I think sort of like erm, the mixture as well of like, and again it’s only in certain places but that mixture of, when you get it right and you’ve got younger people and older people and that age is not a thing and it’s about being queer where as in other straight places it’s about how old you are up to a certain point where as in queer spaces if you get it right you can have 18/19/20 year olds enjoying the same kind of drag performance or the same kind of music as people in their 40s/50s and I think that’s amazing as well because there’s a connection across a queer community, even though it can be divisive and it can still be - it has its own little niches and its own little cliques and stuff like that but I think the one real positive thing about being queer or being gay is that at least, with most people in a certain space, you’ve got that connection of being a bit of a minority in a society that doesn’t cater for you and I think that brings people together in a way that straight people just don’t have the privilege of that and I think we’ve got that real privilege of being a part of a community of people that you don’t even know but when you get it right and you’re in the right space and everyone’s loving the same kind of thing and enjoying the same kind of thing and it doesn’t have to be just like, erm… it doesn’t have to be just like a erm…a club or a music thing. It can be a youth event, it can be like some of things that we’ve done like the art activist thing that we did and it was like 120 queer young people coming together just to be queer young people and I think that kind of atmosphere of not looking over your shoulder, not sort of worrying about who you are or you know not worrying about your queerness, you might still worry about your anxiety and your insecurities because you’ve still got them but being in a space  where you don’t have to worry about your queerness, I think that’s the brilliant thing about the queer scene as well. I think as well it’s the music and the joy, the joy of arts, the joy of seeing a fantastic photo or someone sort of like, make up being on point and being perfect or someone’s outfit being perfect, they sound like, [pause] sometimes they sound can sound like shallow things but if it’s done in a queer space and in a queer way I think it’s so affirming even if it’s not you doing it if it’s other people doing it I think that diversity and that kind of like erm… yourself or your clothes or your make up is a bit of art in itself on a night out and I think that’s amazing. That’s not me - I haven’t got the, the - I can’t put the effort or the creativity into something like that but when I see people who have done that, it makes me feel part of something that’s amazing.

Int.: Yeah so on a finishing note, if you had one message for your younger self and/or the LGBT younger community now what would it be? 

Paul: I think just like reflecting on today, I think for - for my younger self it would just be, don’t fucking be apologetic about who you are and how you look and how you wanna dress and any point to anyone. Don’t let erm… ignorant, un-educated people who’ve got probably really boring lives put you down for trying to do something different or for trying to be yourself. I would probably say to my younger self, I would say get out more [laughs] I go out more now than I ever did when I was younger but again I think it was not feeling safe in certain spaces and stuff like that and I would say to younger people just meet your small crowd, just don’t worry about it being - I always thought, y’know when I talk about the gay scene and I was like “Oh my god, I don’t fit in it feels too big and too intimidating.” Once I met my small little group of people who erm…were my queers in that queer community then that’s when I started to truly to be able to be myself so I think it’s a bit of a cliché but find your crowd, find out who the people are who are going to totally and utterly accept you for being who you are and stick with them and don’t worry about what the others…Don’t worry about the haters! [laughs] Yeah, I think that would be it.

Int.: Cool

Paul: Sounded a bit shit that didn’t it? 

Int.: Hey, don’t worry about the haters!