Int.: Ok, so we’ll just start off with where you were born and where you grew up and stuff?

HM: Ok, I was born in Cumbria, born in Carlisle, but we lived like literally in the middle of a field, it was our house and the farm and like, 15 minutes’ drive to the shop. School was - I went to a teeny primary school, there were 39 of us between age 4 and 11, which sounds idyllic but actually we just got a really terrible education I realised. All of the juniors were in together so like, year 3 and year 6 were taught in together at one point, which is not a great way to teach kids, it sounds really idyllic and like people would always take the piss out of me because I spent half my childhood playing in a farmyard because there wasn’t anything else to do but it was weird and it was a bit backwards, and Carlisle itself, which is our nearest big city and where I did my sixth form in the end and like my best friends lived there and I used to go out there, there was no gay scene, like, there was a monthly gay night in the rock club, once a month but I went to the rock club anyway and the gay night was in the terrible cheesy bit upstairs and we were downstairs in the rock club anyway, so that was literally the entire gay scene and there was just nothing, just being queer in Carlisle was just not really a thing. That was - I’m 35, so that was late 90’s and yeah, kinda knew I was a Lesbian but there was no point in saying anything really because there wasn’t anything you could do about it. What I found out, and my Mum delights in telling me, is quite a lot of people in my primary school have now come out. In a phase in my twenties she used to call me and say “Ooh you’ll never guess who I bumped into, I bumped into such and such’s Mum, he’s got a boyfriend” [laughs]. This is a disproportionate number of queer people, in a really small Primary school!

Int.: Yeah, that is weird. 

HM: Yeah, it’s really strange.

Int.: When did you sort of realise or had sort of inklings that you were queer?

HM: Ah, the classic coming out story conversation, it feels like we’re on a date [laughs]. This is always a conversation that seems to come up when you’re on a date “Sooo, when did you come out?”. So, I knew as a kid, probably… high primary school, maybe like 10/11/12, that I was not going to have a husband, I remember thinking I won’t be a taking a husband back to, like, family things, at some point when I grow up I will probably have a girl type thing, but I think it was because I was a weirdly tall, strange, kid, who thought Well, no boys ever liked me so I think I just thought I couldn’t get a boyfriend so I’d get a girlfriend and then secondary school I began to realise that I really quite fancied a lot of my friends and told a couple of people - told my best friend when I was doing my GCSE’s but like I said, there were just no other lesbians around. In my sixth form - in our year in sixth form and it was a big sixth form, there were two guys who were out, there were no women who were out, it just wasn’t a thing and it wasn’t until I came to Uni - I came to Liverpool for University in 2001 to do my undergrad here and just haven’t left since. It wasn’t until I got here that I could even think about doing anything about it, but then again, I totally failed to meet any gay people and was too shy to go to any of the LGBT society things on my own. I had, like, a really good friendship group but they were all straight, so I just kind of did nothing about it [laughs] for a couple of years and I’m really annoyed with my best friend, who was my best friend from home, who was here a year ahead of me at University, for not dragging me to like a gay society or something, like “Come on, stop being so shy!” and dragging me. Erm, yeah, and in third year, I met someone and fell in love, like, literally, with the first Lesbian that I became friends with. We were together for like, three years, two years, it was ridiculous. Literally the first lesbian I got to be friends with, she was a friend of a friend.

Int.: [laughs] Just like “You’re mine now”

HM: [laughs] Yeah, “Oh we just met, oh we’re together, oh it’s two years later”. Like, it was really weird.

Int.: So…you say you said to your friend when you were, like, 16. What was, sort of, the environment like for…you said there’s no gay scene but how were people like with the queers?

HM: The queers. [laughs]

Int.: The queers. [laughs]

HM: My friends were lovely, because I was part of like the kind of, arty, rocky, grungy, hippie scene, as much as there was, it was late nineties, early noughties, so there was a definite ‘We are the alternative kids and they are the townies’, erm… and that was quite accepting but it was [pause] I don’t know, there was a lot of girls snogging girls to impress boys, I think that was basically most of the queer scene. I don’t know how the guys I was friends with came out, the couple of guys who I knew came out, I don’t know how they ever had a boyfriend or something, I think it was like AOL messenger or something, there just wasn’t...yeah, I wouldn’t have told anyone in the wider world because it’s there was just…it’s a very - Carlisle is still quite a backward place, not backward that’s mean, still quite a - it’s very isolated, it’s a decent sized city but it’s a really long way from anywhere, it’s like an hour and a half to Glasgow, an hour to Newcastle and a couple of hours to Manchester and there’s just kind of like fields, there’s not really much there. [laughs] There’s not much ethnic diversity, there’s not much, kind of multiculturalism or movement of people, so it didn’t feel particularly safe and I’m still aware there, I feel. If we go back and see my family, I feel self-conscious holding my girlfriend’s hand in the street, whereas I don’t here.

Int.: So, did you have any like safe spaces growing up where you could just be yourself, maybe?

HM: Yes, in so much as, my group of friends was…I think I was just unintentionally A-sexual till I was well into university. I had a big crush on my friend and I did tell her in sixth form, we changed schools and I told her whilst we were really drunk and we had a snog and then I did nothing about it again, it was like two years later till I kissed anyone else [laughs]. It was fucking ridiculous! [laughs] Erm…Do you have any safe spaces? Not really, no, didn’t know I needed them. My friends were, like, talking to my friends was safe, but I wouldn’t then, outside of my tight, close girlfriends, wouldn’t have really told anyone further than that. It was just a bit of a secret about me that literally my best friend knew for four or five years but never did anything to sort, never did anything to nudge me towards finding somebody or anything.

Int.: What about family?

HM: Didn’t tell them until I got a girlfriend at University, in the third year of University and like pretty instantly, no, pretty soon told them after I realised like, I really liked her, and it was going to go somewhere. Because, again, it’s one of those things if I wasn’t seeing - I still now, if I’m single, I really struggle to come out, like, if I’m seeing someone I just drop, like, “My girlfriend” into conversation really easily. If I’m single and I’m single for quite a long time, I found it really difficult to come out and it’s quite important to me to be out, it just feels a bit like you’re telling people “I fancy girls” [laughs], if you’re not referencing a partner, you need a kind of, I drop “My girlfriend”, really, a lot into conversation, relatively early and when I’m single, yeah, it’s difficult. So, I basically didn’t tell my parents until there was someone to tell them about, and I knew they’d be fine, but I felt like a weird hypothetical thing to tell them.

Int.: Yeah, like “I am into girls but I’m not seeing anyone”.

HM: Yeah, I’m just telling you a bit too much about what I fancy [laughs], at the moment and you’re not really interested in that. I didn’t have any concept of anything to do with it being an identity thing, and I think that’s a big change in the last 15-20 years that young people think about their sexuality and their gender identity and it’s part of their core identity and I would say that now it’s part of my core identity, but as a teenager and into my early twenties, mid-twenties, it wasn’t, it was just this is who I like or what I like, it wasn’t “I am, this is me, I am a lesbian, I am putting this label on myself and being proud of it”.

Int.: Yeah, so, you mentioned that you weren’t really involved in the gay scene or queer scene when you first moved to Liverpool and everything for Uni. When was the start of - take us to how you met that first Lesbian? [laughs]

HM: So, she was a friend of a friend and…but even through her I wasn’t involved in - she didn’t have many gay friends. People didn’t know we were a couple, she didn’t tell people we were a couple for quite a long time, which I really struggled with and we were together two or three years, and I would be introduced to people and people wouldn’t necessarily know I was her girlfriend, they would think – I mean it was really fucking obvious [laughs], there’s no doubt about it, to look at us there was no question of it but, so I had no contact with the queer scene at all then and then we broke up when I was 23/24 and I went Right, I need to get out there and meet some new friends blah, blah, blah, but… and then I just, kinda met another friend of a friend and we started dating and then through her started going to gay bars, and we only dated for a brief period and then became really good friends and through her then I met loads of other queer people and just started going out and basically, yeah, in that sort of 24, 25, 26 doing all the late night and partying that I didn’t really do at University, a lot of time drunk in GBar and Garlands in the, yeah, mid noughties, late noughties. So that kind of was a bit of a step and then the other one was I joined this women’s book group, in Liverpool and I joined that in - just went along to one of the meetings with a friend, I reckon at least 12 years ago. Yeah, probably about 2007/8ish. Went along to that and then through that met and got involved in a lot of some kind of queer arts things as well. Now, I kind of run that, unintentionally, so know and get involved in quite a few things and have met a lot of people and am now - most of my friends are queer because that’s how I’ve met people and things.

Int.: So, do you want to talk a bit about the book club you do?

HM: YES!

Int.: So, is it a queer…?

HM: So, it’s an LGBT women’s book group, about two years ago we changed it to women’s book and film club because we kept going to the cinema as much as we were doing books, but we haven’t been for ages [laughs]. How do we - It’s a really interesting one and it’s been - Liverpool Gay Women’s book group has been around for 15/20 years. The first ever meeting I went to, which was probably 2007, it was in Doctor Duncan’s pub, and we went in and said “Hi, are you the book club?” Sat down and we had a little bit of a chat and we’d read the book and there was this sudden, huge, in depth conversation and a schism shattered the book group in half, and half the women - they were quite a bit older than us, they were a good 10/15 years older than us, most of the women at the book group – and they said, they announced, that they had decided to meet in somebody’s house, and we could all meet in that house if we wanted to, or they would go off and do their own thing and we could continue to meet at the pub in the town centre and it was our first meeting and we were like “What has just happened?” And like, it was all very amicable, but it was just this really weird “Oh”. So, there were a few of us who I think, kind of possibly, the slightly younger ones - there were two of us who were new, a girl who is now one of my best friends, who had only been going briefly and a couple of other people who were relatively new and we just said “Shall we keep meeting here?” “Yes, let’s keep meeting here.” And then they all kind of - occasionally the odd one of those original woman would come or will be like “Oh, I used to come to this years ago” or we’ll bump into them at things and I’ll think You’re the one, you’re one of those ones from that book group originally. But anyway, we then we’re just like “Ok, well we’ll set up a Facebook group and keep it going” and now my friend Kath* and I sort of - it’s not really a ‘run it’, it is kind of a ‘run it’, update the Facebook group, I try and cajole everyone into having a conversation, do a bit of my “Ok, right, come on” facilitation, make notes of what books everyone’s reading, and we’ll occasionally send out reminders and things. So, when I said run it, it’s very not much labour kind of thing. It’s really weird, I know that if I’m not there or if Kath’s* not there I think it might be a bit weird and a bit - not weird, I think we just have to check that a couple of the regulars are going and be like are you going, because neither of us are going so will you just vaguely manage things and kind of make sure that someone is, otherwise it’s a really, like, it’s the most lovely, weirdest group of women you’ve ever met, it’s just like, everyone’s so different and there’s some really shy, really quiet people and there’s some totally different personalities and ages and different opinions and it can be this like total chaos of everyone just chatting if we’re not careful, but it’s lovely and through that I’ve met so many people and have got so many friends and like really, really, close tight friends but also just lovely acquaintances who I’ve known for five or ten years, and don’t see very regularly but when you do it’s just lovely to see them kind of thing.

Int.: Yeah, so is there anything else in Liverpool that you’re involved in, in terms of like the queer…?

HM: I used to be. [pause] About five or six years ago there used to be, maybe it folded about five or six years ago. There was a council funded organisation called the Liverpool LGBT Community Network, which was funded by the council, there was an LGBT Community Network, BME, older people, and possibly women’s? Religion? Something like that, and they were funded as networks to bring together community organisations and they were like, a rep from lots of different BME community organisations would be there, older people, and they wanted to put a LGBT one but there were two LGBT organisations in the city at the time so they invited just members of the public to be involved in that, and erm, I was part of the steering group for that for three or four years and it was that group that, half the group went off and set up Pride and the other half of us stayed and did like weird, admin-y, council-y, small things [laughs]. I kind of feel like I made the wrong decision [laughs] I should have gone with the Pride group, it looked a lot more fun and it also didn’t fold. So, I was part of the group that was now having all the original conversations about “Right, how are we going to do a Pride? We’re going to negotiate”. We got some money from the councils and, we spent 3 or 4 months just having planning meetings about Pride and then there was the decision that, “You know what? This is huge” Let some people go and just do Pride and I think I was really busy or something and I think also, and I’m quite ashamed, I think I was quite cynical and quite skeptical of how well it would go and how well it would be received, and I think I was worried that I would put a lot of time and effort and passion into it and it wouldn’t go very well, and then I’d be really disappointed so I did a slightly weird, self-protective thing, where I thought You know what, I’m going to let other people go and do that, I won’t risk it going wrong and it being my fault kind of thing. They went off, with Terry* and people, and Terry* became chair of that and there were loads of people involved in the first couple of Pride’s that were originally on the steering group they were in. So, I was part of that for a while but council funding just disappeared and it absolutely folded and there was a woman who was based in LCVS who was, like, the admin for it and she was great, she kept it running single-handedly and a guy Antony* who’s involved in a lot of LGBT things, he was the chair for a long time and then because it was all - it was run with no money and then the woman at LCVS was made redundant, I think, and it just all kind of, all just folded and slowly, quietly, disappeared, which was a pity because it was really interesting looking at the kind of - cause it was very involved in the policy side of stuff and the kind of political side and council systems and there were a lot of links with Police and things like that. It was really interesting, it was an interesting side of things to look out from.

Int.: Yeah, it’s not really one you hear much about.

HM: No! No but it was big, it was quite big and there was a lot of events and there was a - they used to run an event for IDAHO, every year and it was a bit, it was like -  they had afternoon tea in the town hall with the mayor a few times. That was probably… 2010,11,12, something like that, and there was a couple of like - couple of hundred people having afternoon tea in the big ball room of the town hall and things, there were quite a lot of consultations and they, we put out quite a lot of documents and like work around community safety and things like that. It was quite - but just all money disappeared when the council lost everything, all their spare cash and just had to cut everything and it disappeared unfortunately. 

Int.: That’s a shame, so, have you seen or noticed the queer scene changing in Liverpool since you got here to now?

HM: Definitely, it’s just a lot more [pause] open and loud and vibrant, it doesn’t feel like the bars have changed in the slightest, there’s still as many dreadful bars as there always was. I think it’s weird because I’ve aged, obviously, as we all do [laughs], it’s not like it’s something rare…like, I’m not sure how much of it is I’ve got a bit old and boring like “Ugh, I can’t be arsed, I’m just going to go home and sit with the cats” but I still feel like the bar scene is shit, it always was shit and it still is shit. It’s just bizarre and there’s never many women around and it’s a very male dominated - it’s usually bad music and - but I’ve always thought that, I thought that when I was 25 as well, but it didn’t matter when you were 25 and had had enough to drink. I think - Pride blows my mind, how many people there are at Pride, last year we watched the parade rather than take part in it, for the first time in ages, I was like ‘You know what? I want to watch’ I don’t want to be in it, because I usually always march with John Moore’s. So, we stood on the corner and watched it go past, and then went “Wow, this is bigger than I realised” because when you’re in it, you don’t notice and usually when I’m in it I’ll dip out and go and watch a bit but we stood and watched it and it just kept coming and it felt like the average age of people was about 17, it was crazy, it was really interesting watching that change - as a memory from the first Pride, which was still big and loud and joyous but was quite a small number of people, there was quite a lot of bemused people standing on the street watching going “What’s going on? What’s this?” [laughs]. I think as I’ve got older, maybe I’ve moved from being interested in bars and drinking and more of the kind of [pause] art side of things and there’s load of, there’s loads of little organisations and watching Liverpool Queer Collective grow over the last few years has been awesome because that’s really brought a lot of  people together around that, that was – there didn’t used to be anything like that, there was a pocket, there was like Pride, there was the book group, there was another couple of book groups, there’s the films that Jan* puts on at FACT, there’s like, each of the Universities has their societies but they’re all quite, relatively small and self-contained, whereas that was really interesting to watch and they put a lot of effort, I’ve not actually been to anything. Mainly because I’ve got so much, they’ve got so much on and I really do not need to… I do not need to find something else that looks fun, erm… but watching that is really interesting.

Int.: Yeah, erm, so, sorry, I’ve lost my place… Oh yeah, so what are the spaces that you feel like, most visible and most accepted?

HM: Physical Spaces?

Int.: Yeah. Or non? Either or.

HM: I… Love – I’ve lived here for, I realise I have lived here almost, I think, exactly half my life, which…I don’t know how that happened because I still feel a bit new to it? But, clearly not, I’ve been here half my life [laughs]. I love how many people I know, even just to say hello to, just like, and there’s certain places you can go into and you’ll probably bump into someone you know, if you walk into FACT, it’s pretty much 100% I will see someone and be like “Hi!” anytime you go to see a film or have a drink in FACT there will be somebody there, and that feels like a wonderful - I remember when FACT opened and we were like “This is an interesting space” because I frigging hate multiplex cinemas. I really, I find them incredibly stressful, hordes of teenagers in the Odeon in Liverpool One as you walk in, I’m just like… had a, have a - I think it’s ingrained in me to be quite scared of teenagers, you get a lot of shit off kids and young teenagers when I was a student and lived in Kensington, a lot of shit and quite scared of them, so I’ve always been a bit more gravitating towards slightly older spaces, so FACT’s a lovely place. Every time you go to the theatre or to see comedy or something there’s always somebody you know or recognise, especially because we get quite a lot of like, there will be queer comedians and queer musicians and various people and if you go to anything queer - because my girlfriend only moved to Liverpool in the last few years, she was in Manchester, and every time we go anywhere, any time she leaves me alone she comes back like “Do you know this person? I was just talking to somebody…” “Oh I do actually know them” [laughs] but half time I don’t. What was the question about? Queer spaces? Where do they feel safe? Yeah? I mean, generally, I feel pretty safe as a city overall. Generally quite confident walking through town holding my girlfriend’s hand, we’re quite a very handholding couple, she’s my height, we’re both over 6ft, so I think it helps that we’re this tall force of women, we don’t look kind of quiet, meek and small, I think there’s a kind of confidence walking and holding hands like that.

Int.: Towering over them?

HM: Yeah pretty much [laughs]. Erm, but…that’s only really in the city centre. All round where I live in South Liverpool, there’s certain areas that no way would I hold her hand, in certain areas of Liverpool because I just know - terrifying, not safe, not a good idea, but in the city centre and the more kind of South Liverpool areas it feels good.

Int.: So, you’ve mentioned FACT, have you got any other, like, go to places that you just love? Or events that are like…always on the calendar? Always go in there…?

HM: Pride’s almost always go there, missed a couple but my Ex was a schoolteacher, so we always ended up being on holiday over them. Erm, Pride, I love and haven’t been for ages Sonic Yootha, that’s a fantastic night out, that makes me unbelievably joyous, mainly because I’m quite young there, I’m only 35 and it’s a really interesting mixed crowd, there’s an awful lot of people considerably older than I am, which is lovely and it’s an interesting thing to watch -  look round the room and see men in their 50’s off their faces dancing and it’s a really like,…I love that night, it’s a really good night out, and it’s…

Int.: So diverse.

HM: It’s so diverse, it’s such good music, it’s the hottest place in the world, literally…[laughs] there’s always this like “What are you wearing?” “Halve the layers, half that” Anyone who would come with us like “Wear the thinnest T shirt you own!” and there’s a lovely change of like, earlier on in the evening and later on as well, there’s groups of women in their fifties there earlier on and then about midnight they all go home and I think  - We put, a couple of my friends and I, two of the girls from book club, and I put on a fundraiser for Pride, about two or three years ago, a women’s night in the back room of Fredrick’s, which was awesome and there was, I reckon, how many did we have? I reckon about 100 and - just over 100 people counted on the door and it was incredible, it was just - and that was the same, it was just like there was a meet up group from Ormskirk or something that came on the dot at half past 7, when it opened and there was this group of like older women who sat around and had drinks and they left about half past 10 and all the younger women came in and it was just awesome, it was such a good night but it was a stress to organise [laughs] and we keep saying we should do it again, we should organise it again, and we’re like “It was really quite a hassle” like, it was really stressful because our DJ pulled out the last minute [gasps] and it was just like weurghhh!

Int.: Get the Spotify playlist. [laughs]

HM: Yeah, it was very much that in the end. It was just a “Fuck it! Just stand there with Spotify” Erm, but, yeah, where else is there that’s good? Where else do I, I feel like there’s loads of things I go to and I can’t think of any of them. Yeah…

Int.: It’s always when you’re on the spot.

HM: Yeah! My Diary seems to be quite far down, I go to the World AIDS day memorial every year because I work in sexual health related stuff, so, make a point of going to that and that’s another one that’s weirdly lovely to see people that you only see there once a year. Erm…What else? I’m sure I go to millions of queer things and I can’t think of them. Book groups, the weird like, it’s been the last Tuesday of the month for the last 10 years, it’s like a really weird routine to the point that a couple of months ago my friend who runs it with me, I sent her a message saying “Fancy getting some food before book group tomorrow?” and she went “Aw shit, it’s book group tomorrow, I’d forgotten!” and I was like…[laughs] “LAST TUESDAY OF THE MONTH FOR THE LAST 10 YEARS! How have you forgotten, what is wrong with you?” It’s been like a weird constant in my life…

Int.: It’s like 120 book clubs…

HM: It’s not, in fact, because to be fair, it’s 110 because we don’t meet in December so, yeah, it’s a really - shit, yeah that’s over 100 book groups and there’s like - it’s hilarious because there’s certain like, women drift in, people come along new, and it’s like “Ooh this is nice. Nice new person” and they’ll be like “Yeah, I’m just here to meet new people” and we’ll be like “Have you recently had a breakup?” like “yeah, yeah! Not long broken up with my girlfriend, how did you know?” “Don’t know?” And then they’ll hang around and be a part of Book club for six - nine months and then comes most months and someone else who is single comes along, and then we’ll realise they’re getting on and we’ll be like “I think those two are seeing…” and then they’ll just disappear, [laughs] we won’t see them again and then we’re like “Oh, well they disappeared” and then maybe two years later one of them will come back and we’re like “Do you think they’ve broken up or not? I think they’ve broken up” [laughs] and there’s a really interesting - loads of people…we went to our first, book club wedding last summer, which we went to the evening reception, which was lovely, they met at our book group - in fact there’s…yeah, they met at the book group, was it just those two who met at book group? Possibly, yeah, and that was like, “Oh, I’m so proud, you met at our book group!” 

Int.: Who would have thought? Lesbian dating.

HM: Yeah, but seriously, this was like pre-Tinder and pre any of the—and pre- Her and pre any apps, so you had to use dreadful Gaydar for girls, which was dire or you had to go meet people at - either in bars which I was always shit at doing or book group, I got a lot of dates out of book group actually [laughs] I did go on a lot of dates with people I met at book group…but yeah, pre…

Int.: Does that not make talking about the books awkward? The next time, if it did or didn’t go well?

HM: You know what? I think because I’d been going so long, it was usually alright, there were a couple where I’d go on a couple of dates and nothing would happen and it would be fine, there was a couple where I went on a date with somebody and it went a bit weird and they just never came back [laughs], that sounds really bad. I realise that now - I think I just get custody of book group now, that’s just how it works [laughs]

Int.: I’ve been going the longest, I get to stay there [laughs]

HM: I do know people who have broken up with people they met at book group and it has been a kind of “Who’s getting cut?” “Like, just give it time and you can both come back to book group because we don’t want to lose either of you.” 

Int.: Do, every other month kind of thing

HM: Yeah, alternate! Shared custody of book group.

Int.: So, is there anything you would like to see change about Liverpool’s queer scene? Or approve on?

HM: The one that’s really funny and makes me laugh every time, everything I’ve ever been involved in with like anything with the LGBT network and any feedback is always “We need better bars, we need better nightlife options, we need like café’s and things” but I think there’s a real naivety in that because they are driven by profit and as a community we can’t complain that those businesses aren’t there if we’re not supporting them and we’re not funding them and we’re not putting our money into them. So, when good bars open and then shut quite quickly it’s because we’re not going out enough and the reason that there’s not women out when you go to most of the gay bars, it’s mainly men, is because women, we don’t like going out as much. Women - I think there is a general, like, it’s a stereotype but I think women do, they meet someone, settle down and sit at home watching Netflix with their cats. I’ve done that, really badly done that and most people I know have done that, like, you don’t go out-out as much when you’re a bit more settled. So, I’d love there to be more queer café culture. We’ve got bad nightclubs and now there’s things like Sonic Yootha and Beers for Queers, there’s, there’s less - there’s more, there’s more options, more kind of friendly laid back, less bad nightclubs off your face on pills till 2am things to do or bad cheesy music for women on their hen do’s, there’s nice, it just gets really tedious, though one of my friends has incredible luck with women on hen dos, she just has this ability to just pull straight women, wherever we’re anywhere, we just turn around like “How is she stood kissing another straight woman? It’s ridiculous!”

Int.: But also, it’s like, we’re not a zoo, don’t ogle at us for your own entertainment!

HM: It’s really weird, yeah, I find it very strange. What we don’t have that I like about Manchester, we go out in Manchester every, like, I don’t know, a couple of times in the summer we’ll go and have an afternoon on Canal Street, there is that you can sit outside, you can day drink, you can chill out, there are café’s, there are Richmond Tea Rooms, like there are a couple of nice pubs as well as bad bars, like The Molly House, just really like to sit and have a pint and we don’t have that here, but we’re clearly not, anywhere that has tried that clearly hasn’t stayed in business and there’s loads of places now, especially because we’ve moved over and it’s changed, we don’t - there isn’t as such strong need for safe squeer queer… 

Int.: Squeers! [laughs]

HM: Safe. Queer. Spaces, that’s a tongue twister! [laughs] As there used to be and there’s an awful lot of cafes and day bars that it’s quite – it feels generally quite safe to drink in. Or to, like, hang around in with your partner and, yeah… Did you ask if there was anything missing?

Int.: Yeah, or just things that you would like to improve on?

HM: So, basically my argument there was, other people say that’s missing but I think that’s our own fault. [laughs] That’s the conclusion of that little rant I’ve had. Erm…What else do we need? Is there missing? [pause] No, I think we’re quite - it’s just the bar, it’s just that kind of nice, laid back feel and we have the queer LGB… What’s it called? Stanley Street quarter, we have that kind of gay quarter and it was the LGBT network that was driving those signs and it was them that were setting all that up, kind of pushing the council with that and there was a lot of consultation around safety in the area and we did the consultation around the bollards on Stanley Street, so it was really, like, really quite boring policy stuff but I like that shit.

Int.: But important.

HM: Important, yeah! Like, really, and it was…

Int.: And also you don’t think about those things, the amount of times I have walked past those signs with the rainbows on and even with my Mum and she’s like “Oooh look, Pride flags!” and I’m like “Yes, because that’s where all the gay bars are Mum”.

HM: And somebody kind of has to drive that and the council, when they did the bollards, and they did work around, there was a big consultation around community safety, things like that. But, that area of town is just not nice to hang out in, it’s weird, it’s a strange – it’s a very evening-y place and it’s not - it’s not Canal Street and it’s never going to be because we’ve not got the population to keep it going but that does make me sad because we don’t have anything like that, but we have so many other nice bars and cafes and spaces that I don’t think it’s ever - I think it’s too late now it’s never going to just suddenly develop.

Int.: We do need the Planet though, from the L Word.

HM: [laughs] Yeah, that would be fabulous. You know what? I haven’t watched the L Word since it originally came out and I’m thinking I’m going to go back and re-watch it and it’s going to be so dated, isn’t it?

Int.: It is but it’s great!

HM: Is it still really good? Cool, I’ll have to go back and watch it.

Int.: And also new L Word.

HM: I know, I’m thinking we need to squeeze in all five or six series before the new one starts, which is quite a busy - because I think I only seen the last two series once? I’m sure I watched the early ones a couple of times.

Int.: Well, season six you don’t really need to watch ever again.

HM: Yeah, that’s the terrible one about Jenny, isn’t it? Yeah, it’s dreadful.

Int.: We don’t go back to that. [laughs]

HM: Yeah, I think I’ve like - I have a kind of blurry line between what is Liverpool queer scene and what is queer in Liverpool and what is my friendship group in Liverpool, because I met the girl who runs book group with me, we have, through her, she - we have a tight group of kind of like 8, 10 lesbians that are my community, my girls. And it’s really interesting how we kind of go in and out of other queer things and there’ll be like if one of us is going to something, you send it round the What’s app group and there’ll be like, one or two will come along and then there’ll be some things where no one comes along and it’s really interesting and I can’t quite work out what is my personal community and what is the Liverpool queer community and things which is nice, I like the fact that there’s a blur between it. If that makes sense?

Int.: That’s cool, make your own queer spaces.

HM: Yeah, yeah, basically. The best queer space we made was in a nightclub in Romania, we had very cheap - we tried to organise us all going away, there were 9, 10 of us. We went to Cluj, in Romania, Cluj-Napoca, and it was cheaper than going to Wales for the weekend, so, nine of us went to Romania, the flight and the hotel was cheaper than us hiring a cottage in Wales, which was, we were trying to find - because it was a bank holiday weekend, we were trying to find somewhere to stay within two hours drive of Liverpool and in the end we got on a plane and went to Romania but it was quite a cute little university town and my friend found out there was ‘A’ gay club in town and the nine of us rocked up at this gay club already very drunk, literally drank the bar dry of its tequila and most of its other spirits because it was like a pound for a bottle of beer and a shot.

Int.: That’s dangerous! [laughs]

HM: And just, made total shows of ourselves…and realised the next day how reserved Romanian people were compared to us, I’m sure they were just standing there going “Who the hell are these drunk Brits?” As we’re like, in this gay bar in Romania underground, because Romania’s still quite a homophobic country and I think they’ve got, they don’t have great rights, they don’t have protective legislation, and there’s a lot of stigma, so I think us being really loud and proud was a bit rich [laughs]. It was fun, it was interesting seeing how different things are to here.

Int.: I always - that’s, one of the, well, it’s one of those things, because I was explaining this to  my Mum a few years ago, that whenever you go away to places, you do have to check, what it’s like to go to certain places, and I mean, y’know, I’m not very closeted with my looks, so, you do have to check up on things but also, I’m just checking up for what it’s like there, because… will they have gay bars? [laughs] Will they have somewhere I can go? Having to check out the places, I went to Dubai a few years ago…

HM: Oh god, see I have…

Int.: My Mum was convinced I was going to get arrested.

HM: My sister and I went to Japan a couple of - shit, seven years ago, and when we were looking at flights, we were looking at changing - she found a reasonably cheap flight that changed in Dubai and I was like “I’m not going to Dubai” and she got really annoyed with me, I was like I can’t set foot in that country, because I have a real - I’m not giving, a) I’m not giving them my money, I’m not paying money to an airline, to Emirates who are owned by the Dubai government or whoever it is, they don’t need my money, I’m not spending any money in the airport, and also I don’t feel safe, I can’t have fun and be on holiday in a country where people like me are arrested and are illegal and I have a real [pause] kind of definite – I make definite choices about where I will go, and erm we were looking at cheap holidays a few years ago and I was like I don’t think I feel safe going to Turkey, it might be ok but I don’t - ideally I don’t want to go and be a little bit worried that we - is anyone going to look at us funny if we check in with a double room? I know some people who went on their honeymoon to…somewhere, I can’t remember where it was, like, one of the luxury island places and didn’t realise it was illegal to be gay there, a same sex couple went on their honeymoon there and had – and found it really hard and found it really weird and people just didn’t really acknowledge they were on their honeymoon and they got totally different - I don’t think they experienced overt homophobia but it didn’t get any of the kind of treatment, they could see other honeymooners got and they said they felt awkward and they were very aware that they couldn’t hold hands and things like that. I was like “Oh on your honeymoon? Shit! That’s really hard.” So, I tend to do a lot of checking before I go places. Yeah, we went to Greece last year, the year before, and I was just a bit like Is this…? Ah fuck it, you know what? Just going to walk round holding hands. We’ll be fine. Again, wall of human! [laughs]

Int.: So… so yeah, I guess safe spaces, it’s nice that in Liverpool for the most part we don’t have to think about those things, although the last couple of weeks there has been a lot of homophobic attacks in various other parts of the country…

HM: There have yeah, yeah.

Int.: It’s had my back up against the wall a little bit.

HM: It does, it’s a really weird one because I go through – because I’ve lived in Liverpool and watched the queer scene, watched things change in the UK over 15 years and I feel like I’ve been at the age where I’ve really watched this incredible pivot from, no chance I would have held - the first Pride, I remember holding my girlfriends hand at Pride and then we left Pride and walked to the bus and we stopped holding hands walking through the town centre and that was what, nine years ago? When was the first Pride, is it the tenth one this year? It was 2008. 9,10 years ago, no chance, no chance of walking through town holding hands, whereas now, occasionally whilst walking through the city centre I will walk past groups of teenagers and have a little bristle moment or walk past slightly scary looking lads or you when you just think Uhh you’re going to give me shit. The one I absolutely really struggle with and always have to be careful with is taxi drivers, I just don’t come out to taxi drivers and I end up having ridiculously convoluted conversations because I talk to taxi drivers and they’ll ask questions and I’ll end up being weirdly vague about  my partner or - I do like, research around LGBT health and I’ll be like totally changing the topic of my PHD to make it sound like it’s not anything at all gay and my girlfriend would be like, I dunno, if you’re holding hands or touching or something in the back of a taxi, I’m always just – like taxi’s are the place I often don’t feel safe, they’re the place I generally don’t feel safe, it feels very vulnerable and trapped and it’s interesting because I’m pretty sure the taxi driver feels the same every time someone gets in their taxi because it’s a weird, personal space issue. [laughs]

Int.: So, going a bit broader, is there anything you think our community as a whole, needs to change?

HM: [pause] We’re a very white community. When you’re going to anything queer in Liverpool, it’s very, very white and I think a lot of that just reflects Liverpool, generally, it’s interesting, you walk through the city centre at the weekend or you walk through town and it doesn’t look as diverse as Liverpool is, because Liverpool is quite a diverse city but the city centre doesn’t feel it and I think that’s a real pity but I don’t know what we people in the community etc can actively do about that and that’s a problem in queer communities across the country, you go to Manchester and given how diverse Manchester is, Canal Street isn’t that diverse and I find that a bit odd but I don’t know what we’re meant to do about that. I think it’s not a particular accessible scene for people with physical disabilities, I know we have a real, I think, not sure if it’s still the same but I think Jupiter’s was the only bar that was wheelchair accessible and I think that queer people who have physical disabilities face a lot of problems and a lot of shit and the physical thing of not being able to get into a bar is really unfair but our bars are in weird old building that…

Int.: And Basements.

HM: And basements, because Hide the gays downstairs! Traditionally, yeah, hide them away off the street. Yeah, I think that must be hard and I think a pity. What else can we change about the community? I’d like to think those are just - I don’t know if they’re kind of, that we are not very ethnically diverse and we’re not particularly accessible for people with disabilities, I’d like to think that our community isn’t overtly racist or ableist but I wouldn’t be surprised if people a lot of people are, I think universally we don’t know - yeah, people don’t know when we’re being bigoted or people don’t realise they’re being bigoted a lot of the time.

Int.: People don’t recognise their own privilege.

HM: Yeah, that’s a much better way to say it, less negative than mine [laughs] and yeah…

Int.: It’s still bigoted though, it’s bigoted and privileged and y’know…

HM: Yeah, you’ve got ignorance around things. Yeah, what else would I want to change about the community? I think we’re kind of nice, I don’t know what it’s like for young people anymore, and I think it’s really interesting looking at – as I said about Pride, just the sheer number of young people on that march. How many of them are queer? Or how many of them were just out for a day with their mates? Or how many of them would actually not give somebody shit in school, if they came out to Pride, but are they actually accepting of people out in year 9 kind of thing? I don’t know, I hope there’s not hypocrisy there because I used to do work with – I used to volunteer for Diversity Role Models, who send people into schools to talk about role models and like, in front of classes and I stopped doing it, I’m still on the mailing list but I haven’t done it for the last year or so a) because I’ve been insanely busy and b) because it began to feel a bit, not ‘not’ needed but it began to feel a bit… I felt like we were just standing up and telling them how awful it is to be gay and I was sitting there thinking the people in this room are so much more accepting than people my age I feel like I’m too old to do this now. I kind of feel like they needed much younger people or much older people, people in their 30’s standing there talking about being gay was a bit like “You’re not an amazing, inspirational Grandma but you’re also too old for me to identify with you” [laughs] If that makes sense?

Int.: Some weird in between?

HM: Yeah, like “You’re the same age as my teachers.” I see people that look like you and they probably have some of them - that was the one, I have a lot of friends who are teachers and very few of them are out at school. Not many kids know about their gay teachers and I know a lot of gay teachers but the kids don’t know and I totally understand why the teachers have not come out and I get why they don’t want to and they can’t but I feel it’s a real pity because that would have blown my mind to know that I had a normal, proud, out, gay teacher at school. 

Int.: I only - I had one, a PE teacher…classic.

HM: Lesbian, classic.

Int.: Mm-hmm, and I think that people used to whisper and say she was a Lesbian and gay and stuff, but it wasn’t until I left school in year 11 after my GCSE’s and I went to college and she started playing for the same football team as me, with her girlfriend that I was like “Ohhh” but it was one of those things where if I had known - properly known if it hadn’t just been gossip and rumours spread by - I mean that’s probably why she wasn’t coming out because it’s gossip and rumours but at the same time that would have helped me loads but I can totally see their side. It’s just such an awkward position to be in.

HM: Yeah, I find it - and I totally get it, because I teach at John Moore’s occasionally, and I used to teach quite a bit, and it’s really difficult to come out, even to University level students, it’s a really weird thing to drop into conversation, but I would like them to know and I tend to mention LGBT things and hope they get the hint, erm…yeah because it’s important and even at university it would be really, I would have loved as a university student to have one of my teachers stand there and just mention something about their same sex partner I would have been like “Ohhh look, this is good.” It helps with the role model thing, also, I stopped doing Diversity Role Models because I felt, it just felt really arrogant to call myself a role model, like “I can’t, I can’t, I don’t, I don’t feel like it at the moment” [laughs] and I know they were an amazing charity and I might go back and do some things with them but I was like “This isn’t really working for me” and I had to just drop some things because I was stupidly busy. 

Int.: Cool, so do you find labels restricting or comforting and how do you feel about the development about the LGBTQIA+ acronym?

HM: I actually, it’s about what I said at the start - I’m a big fan of a label, I really like a label. Not in like a, it’s important my label is right, more of a ‘I’m quite lazy’, I like putting people in boxes, it’s nice if I can order the world into nice discreet little boxes, these are the gays, these are the lesbians, these are the bisexuals. I find it really interesting how the language has changed, so much in 10-15 years, and I’m aware I’ve suddenly gone from being like all “Right on and woke” to being “Oh no, I may say something wrong and be offensive”, especially around the way that gender has changed and perception of gender and our communities approach - well everybody’s approach to gender and that’s one that I’m behind the times on which makes me very sad, really embarrassed because I used to be very cool, but Like, because I’ve never had any issues with my gender, I’ve never questioned my gender, I get the whole kind of questioning your sexuality and the labels and what you think about sexuality, but gender is such a different one for me, I can’t put myself in people’s shoes very easily and I can’t apply my experience of my life to that, so I’m very aware that I’m ignorant about that, but it’s incredible how many different labels there are and I think it’s amazing how much validity it gives people when they find a label that suits them and how much - I’ve got a friend who is A-sexual and when she found the word A-sexual she had an epiphany moment and she was like, she had had so much trauma and so much shit around her approach to relationships and when she realised and when she googled and when she found other people who were A-sexual it blew her mind, she was like “I’m not a freak, it’s ok, there are other people who are like me! I can do this, and I can behave this way and be this person and that’s fine” and I love that. I find, I like the word queer but I don’t really apply it to,  it’s funny, I’ve tried to start applying it - I tend to apply it to our community but I don’t apply it to myself, one of my friend’s once said to me “You are the least queer person I’ve ever met, Hannah”, I was like “Aw, rude”, she was like “Look at you” and I was like “Hmmmm”. I think because I’m like, pretty…gender conforming and I’m not like… in - I’m in a traditional monogamous relationship. I’m very white, middle class, monogamous, lesbian, there’s no blurry things and I think, she was taking the piss but I was like, yeah. So, I would say I was part of the queer community, but I wouldn’t describe myself as queer, I think I’m a bit too boring to be queer [laughs]

Int.: There’s definitely not a… erm… what word am I looking for? You don’t have to be wearing a rainbow flag to be queer.

HM: I know, I think it’s because there’s no… I think it’s to do with my gender presentation and my gender identity feels very… it feels it’s very binary. I am a woman, there is no blurriness around my gender and my gender presentation particularly, therefore, my friend was like “You can’t be queer”, “Fair enough, fair enough, I’m not in some sort of interesting, poly relationship.” I’m quite heteronormative [laughs].

Int.: Heteronormative but a big lesbian. [laughs]

HM: Yeah, my partner and I have had theoretical conversation about whether we will get married in the future, and we have a list of heteronormative bullshit that would not be allowed at our wedding. Things like being given away by your dad, that’s weird, it’s fucking weird, I’m not doing that, walking down the aisle, it’s weird, I’m not doing that, NO! we’re scrapping that, we’re scrapping that! [laughs]

Int.: There you go, that’s close enough. 

HM: Yeah, so that’s like clinging onto the queer thing now. But I like labels because it - I do like labels generally, I think they give people identity, they help people find who they are, they help us find a community, and they’re mental shortcuts for me and if I know what someone’s label is and how they define themselves but also I know they box us in and they stop us being able to express or they stop us necessarily being able to behave in a way you want to. By, I don’t know, identifying as a lesbian I’ve cut myself off from ever having any kind of experiences with men again, which I’m alright with but you do occasionally meet a man and think Hmm he’s really hot and I’m like “Oh wait, yeah, no, I’ve made myself a lesbian so that’s not really going to - they’re going to think I’m a lesbian, so it’s kind of, hmm” things like that where you kind of - where you slightly restrict…

Int.: I think what it has to be is like labels are great and, again, I love labels too, but it’s more when people think that you have to stick to these strict stereotypes and rules for these labels and thinking that there’s only one way to be this or there’s only one way to be that…

HM: And the one that I find really interesting is you can be a woman, you can fully identify as a woman but be really butch. You don’t have to perform your femininity in this same way and yeah, that’s the one that I feel is being lost a little bit. Like, there’s lots of older butch lesbians but you don’t meet as many younger butch lesbians as older ones.

Int.: Yeah, I think another reason for that though is because I remember - Hello tape, I’m going to go off on one about me now - my sort of expression of being a lesbian and being a dyke was sort of like…when I was first coming into my own, getting comfortable and everything y’know, I dress quite androgynous, I like men’s shirts and clothing and stuff but I always felt like I had to be more butch and y’know, had to perform more masculine. I had to be a certain type of butch otherwise it was like weird or whatever. But it’s only the last few years that I’ve realised well no, I’m very androgynous, that’s – I love that, I don’t mind when people mistake my gender and stuff that’s what I’m aiming to do. I still identify as female but I perform a more masculine version of that, but also I do have this feminine side, I do have a bit of a camp side sometimes and my best mate will joke sometimes that I’m a gay man trapped in a lesbians body and it’s the last few year that I’ve came to accept that and actually no, that’s ok, I don’t have to be this stereotype of a butch lesbian. I wouldn’t call myself a butch lesbian anymore, I like the word dyke for me as much as it has been used against me as a slur I’m like, no, that’s a spunky word.

HM: [laughs] Spunky!

Int.: It’s a spunky word.

HM: It’s a nice sounding word, ‘Dyke’.

Int.: “I’m a Dyke!” and I am a Dyke, like, I’m a little - it’s like tyke. It’s little and scrappy…

HM: Bit cheeky.

Int.: And yeah there’s more than one way to be a certain label, like, it’s not - it isn’t one size fits all. It’s not “you must do all these things and tick all these boxes”.

HM: I remember meeting, the first soft, sweet, kind, mothering butch lesbian when I was - my friend who lives on the other end of the country, going to stay with her when I was 23/24 maybe a little bit older and meeting one of her friends who was very butch lesbian and me assuming how she was going to be and then we went for a night out and she was the most kind, mothering person I have ever met, she was so lovely and I remember having this Ohhh because I had only ever met quite masculine appearing and masculine behaving, “masculine” in averted commas, that kind of slightly aggressive, quite confident, quite loud, butch woman. To meet an unbelievably sweet, soft, shy, kind, butch lesbian was like “Ohhh this is interesting”, like, it was a ‘Huh’, interesting one.

Int.: No, I get that to, I’ve had an ex – an exes parent’s, who before they met me said I looked like I was trouble, but then I turned up with a box full of brownies like, “Hi, nice to meet you, I’m Kay!”

HM: And I guess you’re like the politest, sweetest person to be brought home, like “Thank you very much Mr. Person, that was lovely.”

Int.: Yeah! So, yeah, definitely stereotypes are a weird one.

HM: It’s interesting, and it’s interesting going back to labels and how those labels are important but stop being stereotypes, and I feel like, I feel like we’re…

Int.: It doesn’t have to be a personality.

HM: Yeah, a big thing that has changed in the last 10/15 years is how those labels and those identity markers and terms, generally these stereotypes of this is what a lesbian is like and this is what a gay man is like and this is what a trans woman is like are beginning to disappear I think, even in public consciousness because there are just so many different queer people around. Most people, I feel, anyone in their 30’s, knows some gay people, maybe doesn’t know Trans people but knows queer people and will have and those stereotypes slightly challenged and even on television there is - the representation is getting better, it’s still dreadful but it’s soap operas and there’s a lot of drama’s, anyone who has Netflix can’t fail to watch something that has some sort of queer character in it who’s not always a stereotype. Not that stereotypes are bad, I mean there’s that whole homophobia against camp men, people like Alan Carr, has said the most shit he said he gets is off gay men, for being too camp, so, yeah, it’s interesting.

Int.: Yeah, it’s definitely y’know, you don’t have to be a stereotype, like don’t assume everyone is going to be this but also if you do tick a lot of those boxes there’s nothing wrong with that either, like, it’s just… LET PEOPLE BE PEOPLE!

HM: Yeah, stereotypes are there for a reason, it’s quite interesting when you try not to be stereotypical but then you’re like “I did, I did all these things that are really stereotypical”.

Int.: I have a cat and more than 3 house plants.

HM: [laughs] I have a cat, hit 32 and discovered gardening and I’m just like… love my little garden with the cats, [laughs] suddenly.

Int.: I love Vegan cooking…

HM: At some point, yeah, at some point I discovered National Trust properties, it’s like can you get more middle-classed lesbian for fucks sake. I didn’t ask if it was ok to swear, I’m going to assume it was, yeah.

Int.: Oh no that’s fine. I mean, I can bleep those out or whatever. I don’t really know what I’m going to do with them yet, but we’ll see. But yeah…how do you feel like the public perception has changed in the last however many years? 20 years or so, with the rise of more queer media?

HM: I think it’s improved dramatically. If you - dramatically in people under about 45. I think a lot of people have [pause] queer children now and have had to face and accept that. A lot of people have queer family members, people are more open about it, I think thinking about - I wouldn’t - about 10 years ago I had friends who were in their 30’s, so people who were about 10 years older than me, who weren’t out to their parents and 10-15 years ago my first girlfriend wouldn’t introduce me to people as her girlfriend. Now, I can’t imagine that not being the way with people my age and younger. When I meet people who are closeted it just blows my mind like “How? I’m sorry it’s 2019, how are we still in the closet?” Unless you’re from an incredibly religious family or unless you are from a community that is particularly judgemental and just the news around inclusive education in Birmingham’s a really interesting one because we think things have changed a lot, but they haven’t in all communities. I think media representations and openness about kind of queer people, all different types has - changed dramatically, there’s all queer characters in all of the soap operas with variable levels of acceptable, most of them die in the end, got to kill your gays at some point. It’s crazy and I love, I used to… I remember I used to, like, there were 2 or 3 things you could watch that had gay characters, I remember watching Tipping the velvet on BBC 2 when I was in second year University and it blew my mind because I wasn’t out to my housemates at the time and I remember hiding in my bedroom watching it on my TV and it just - because you couldn’t get access to, you couldn’t just watch the internet on your phone, you had to plug the thing in and load the computer up, so I’m part of that generation that’s seen - we got internet at home when I was 16, just after I started my A-levels and we fought over it because you could either have the internet or the telephone and my Mum used to come and pull it out, “I need to use the telephone!” and like that change from dial up internet in the late 90’s to now over those 20 years is just nuts and the information that people can access and the ability it has given so many people to find their community and to find their connections and decided to fuck it and move to a big city - and that’s the other one, I don’t think people need to do that as much as they used to, the internet, phone apps and those kind of things that allow you to meet other queers wherever you are, I had Tinder for a long time - not for a long time, I had Tinder on my phone for a while and I used to use it when I went back to stay with my Mum and I’d be like “WHERE THE HELL WHERE ALL THESE LESBIANS WHEN I WAS A KID, TEENAGER” There’s millions of them and I think that has changed public perception a lot because it’s just more normalised in some communities, not in others.

Int.: Yeah, so, if you had one message to your younger self or the younger LGBT community now, what would it be?

HM: For my younger self it would be stop being so fucking shy and just go to something gay. I was so shy and so insecure and so scared and I don’t really know of what, like, genuinely if one of my friends had been like “Come on we’re going to a gay bar” I would have gone with them, it would have been fine, but yeah I wish I had been less, I wasn’t even ashamed, I was just shy but I was shy of all social situations. I wish I had joined the LGBT society in first year of Uni, freshers fair, gone up to them and been like “Hi, I want to join your society”. That would have been nuts, I meet students here in our LGBT society they are like the most, even the shy ones and I’m like “But you have people, it’s incredible! I was just sat at home like I really like this girl, but I can’t tell her”. That would be my message to my younger self, just stop being so shy and throw yourself into the community because the gay, queer community is awesome. I always say that I really like being gay because it’s like being part of a secret – I used to say it’s like being part of a secret society and you met someone else and it’s like “I think they’re gay, I’m going to drop it into conversation I’m gay” and they’re like “I’m gay” and you’re like “Yes! You’re gay, I’m gay, we’re going to be friends.” It was like this instant connection or instant some sort of familiarity because you were both gay and it feels like that’s disappearing a bit, it’s kind of dissipated because it’s not really a secret anymore, most people are so open about it but it does feel like you’re part of a club and I love that. I love how the queer community feels like a club, and there’s arseholes in the club, of course there is, there’s snobby, unfriendly people in the corner sneering at you as there are in all clubs but you’re part of this lovely club where people - the fact you’ve got this thing in common, you’ve had this common experience to some degree mean that you’ve got this connection with them and I love that. 

What would I say to the younger queer community? You don’t know how lucky you got it? No, that’s not fair, because I know it’s shit and I know it’s hard and it’s harder, it is hard for every young community, I think there’s a lot of pressure on, there’s even more pressure on young people around body image and sex and expectations and what they think they should be like and look like and should perform and should act up to is different from us and then from queer people I know in their 50’s who were fucking, literally, were hiding in basements hoping police don’t find them, 60’s maybe, yeah, late 60’s. There was a big change, but yeah, don’t have to be, I think it’s that thing were there’s some point that you find yourself and it’s a really nice thing, I don’t know, my 20’s were a big turning point and I think by the time I hit 30 I was like “Excellent, this is who I am” and I had a lot more confidence and it’s a nice thing when you realise that and it’s that cheesy American ‘It gets better’ thing even if you are surrounded by supportive people, the way you see yourself changes so much over time. I’m waffling now [laughs]. I feel like I’m writing long winded inspirational Instagram quotes like “Love yourself, you’ll feel yourself, it gets better!”

Int.: No, that’s great.