Int.: So, we’ll just start off with where you were born and where you grew up.  

Ben: Erm I was born in Birkenhead, I think. But then I live in West Kirby in the Wirral. Erm, on Merseyside.

Int.: What was that like?

Ben: It was alright. It was quite nice. I lived there like all my life. Like we literally haven’t moved house since I was born. We probably should off but we haven’t. 

Int.: When did you realise that you were maybe different and queer?  

Ben: Erm I was in year 9, so I would have been like…14 I think. Yeah I kind of—well yeah, I kind of realised then I think. 

Int.: Was there like a moment where? 

Ben: Yeah, Christmas Eve. It was an inconvenient time for me to realise. Well, I’d been thinking about it for a few months and then—‘cause one of my friends at the time had come out as like, gender fluid or non-binary or something. Something along those lines. Erm, and that was like the first kind of time that I’d been like oh yeah there’s other things. Then I kind of realised that I was—I kind of used every single label and then was like hmm, no they don’t work and then I just kind of went through all of them and then found the one that I was like oh yeah, that fits. 

Int: What label is that?

Ben: Erm, it was trans and then I was like, I realised that I was trans and then I never actually really realised that I was gay or queer. It just kind of happened.

Int.: So, did you come out immediately or did you sort of sit on it for a while? 

Ben: Erm, I came out in like the February, so it was, it was pretty fast after that. But then because I came out as trans it was like, you come out a lot of times, every single time you meet someone. But yeah it was quite soon after. 

Int.: How was, like, school and friends? 

Ben: [Laughter] School was so bad. Yeah it was really bad. I went to a 'Girls School’. Erm, yeah and that was not good. They were not very nice about it at all. Yeah no, it was really bad. But my friends were nice because then we already had a friend who was like non-binary or something, so they were fine with it. But school weren’t.

Int.: What were the things that school weren’t okay about?

Ben: —They didn’t ever change my name, until year 11, so two years. Erm, that was only because I turned 16 and they couldn’t—they didn’t have any excuse. ‘Cause until then they were like “oh we need parental permission” but I had parental permission, but they just ignored that, but until I was—when I turned 16 they couldn’t find any reason not to. Erm, but yeah, they let me wear trousers because they couldn’t really stop me. But they were just kind of…yeah they just weren’t very good about it.  Like they’d stop—if teachers referred to me as Ben, they’d have a go at the teachers and be like, you can’t do that. So yeah it was great.

Int.: Did you have any teachers that were…okay?

Ben: Yeah there were a few that tried to call me Ben. Like my form tutor was really nice, she tried to, and she was really happy for me when school finally gave in. But yeah, there’s a couple of teachers that were nice, but mostly they just kind of…most of the teachers didn’t know to be fair. They just didn’t know what it was, so they just kind of ignored it. 

Int.: Was there like any education in school, around LGBT stuff for you?

Ben: No, there was one session. In like year 9 I think…yeah actually in year 9. It was just before I realised actually. It was like, the last September. There was one session, from Diversity Role Models. I think they came into school once. Erm and it was a trans person that talked. But apart from that, there wasn’t anything else for the entire five years. 

Int.: That’s surprising that they’d get Diversity Role Models in, you’d think that that would spur them on to be more accommodating.

Ben:  I think it was a tick a box like, “okay, we’ve done that. We’re supportive. Let’s go”. 

Int.: So, with school not being great, were there any safe spaces that you went to? 

Ben: Yeah, GYRO in Liverpool they’re so good. 

Int.: How did you find out about them? 

Ben: I can’t actually remember, I think I just kind of googled LGBT clubs in Merseyside and that was the only one, or something—there was one in New Brighton, but that had like closed down three years ago or something like that—I dunno, I couldn’t find it again so I think it disappeared. But yeah that was the only one, and it was brilliant. It was great.  

Int.: What was that first…sort of session like, that first time you went? 

Ben: So scary. I literally…I didn’t talk to anyone for four months. I came to that group—I went almost every week and literally didn’t talk to anyone for four months. I think I had like three conversations. But then I carried on going and it was great. So it was worth it.

Int.: What did you like about the group and everything? 

Ben: Erm, it was just kind of the fact that you didn’t…like you didn’t have to come out, I think that was the main thing. You just kind of went and they were like “okay, just have a seat” they just kind of—they didn’t…you didn’t have to justify why you were there or justify your identity to anyone like, you just were. They saw you as a person rather than an identity. Which was nice. 

Int.: So when did you feel comfortable enough to, I mean you said it happened quite quickly, but was it a case of you were waiting for the right time to come out and be yourself? Or was it just a case of no right I just need to be out now. 

Ben: I think it was a mixture of both, it was just kind of like…I don’t know. I think once I realised, I was like, I can’t un-realise this and I kind of had to do something about it. Like I got my hair cut really fast as well, because it was over Christmas, I had to wait until after new year, because all the hairdressing appointments were booked because it was like the festive season. Erm, which was kind of horrible, but then as soon as I realised, I was just like, I need to get this sorted out. And then after I got my haircut, then I think, well…I’d say my…I think my parents were kind of a little bit onto it, but when I told my mum she thought that like, she was so well meaning but, she thought I was coming out as a lesbian. And she was like, “it’s fine I don’t care if you’re gay”. I was like [Laughing] “right, let me explain this” so I had to like, properly explain it. But yeah, it all did kind of happen quite fast. I think it just kind of came out. But like I didn’t mean to come out, I just did. 

Int.: I guess it’s nice you didn’t have like, too much of a period of feeling trapped or…

Ben: But in a way that kind of carried on for another two years. Because of school, well three years. Yeah ‘cause I came out but then I was still kind of…yeah, I came out but then I was still being like “hmm, no you haven’t come out, get back”. 

Int.: Yeah, being forced back in. 

Ben: Yeah. 

Int.: That’s harsh. 

Ben: Yeah, it’s kind of weird. 

Int.: How did that feel? You’re ready to be yourself and then being shoved back in?

Ben: That was not nice. Group kind of helped with that. Going to group but also, Paul helped with school. I think he went into my school a few times to have meetings with the people who were being like “no you can’t change your name”. He printed off a load of legal documents and was like “yes you can”. Which I think definitely helped. It was just kind of nice just to have that like, support there. 

Int.: Having someone in your corner. 

Ben: Yeah exactly. 

Int.: Because I imagine it’s…especially with all the legal stuff and then being like “no we can’t do that” for you as a young person, it’s like “oh, okay… 

Ben: Yeah, there wasn’t anything else I could do, where as there was something he could do. So, it was really helpful. 

Int.: So, you’re quite young but have you seen any sort of change in the queer scene in Liverpool since being out, like do you notice more things, or do you… 

Ben: I think maybe, but it might just be that I’m just more aware of it. Yeah it seems like there’s quite a lot of like, it sounds really weird, but kind of underlying spaces, that you don’t notice them until you like, know someone who knows someone else and then you’re like “oh I also know that person” and it’s kind of this weird shape of like…queer spaces. And then you find out about them once and you’re kind of in that loop. And I think it’s kind of strange. But yeah, so I think I noticed that, but that’s probably just ‘cause erm, I’m getting older. [Laughing] 

Int.: [Laughs] Yeah but you’re still young. Do you know any of the top of your head, like are there any in mind?

Ben: I don’t know. It’s kind of…yeah, I can’t think of any. It’s more like spaces within spaces. If you go to FACT or whatever, and there’s like, things happening there that are kind of queer related. There’s quite a lot of art galleries to be fair and you kind of see things popping up all the time. Yeah, just kind of like spaces within spaces. 

Int.: Is there anywhere in Liverpool that you tend to gravitate towards regularly?

Ben: What like er…

Int.: Like safe—places where you’re like “I feel visible, I feel safe, I feel great”…

Ben: I think Bold Street to be fair. Yeah, it’s quite like a visible, I know it’s just a street, but there’s quite like a visible queer community on that street which is quite nice. I was actually just talking to my friend about this recently. They’ve just moved to uni in another city and they were saying they can’t find like a Bold Street equivalent. There, in other cities, there isn’t, like that kind of visible queer street. Whereas you come to Liverpool and you walk down that street and you’re like it’s fine. You know that you’re kind of like, you’re good there. 

Int.: So, do you wanna talk a little bit about your super fancy award that you recently won?

Ben: Yeah it was the Stonewall Young Campaigner of the year award. 

Int.: So how did that come about? 

Ben: There was like this program that Stonewall run every year for like 25 I think, or maybe 30 young people who were like LGBT young people from across the country. You apply for it and if you get a place then you go on this residential and they teach you how to campaign and stuff, to make a campaign to tackle LGBT discrimination and things. Erm, yeah and then I made a, I made a film. A documentary film for it, about trans experiences in schools. As like a response to my experience. It ran until, from October to May, I made it over that time. And then we had the awards in May and I went down to London, and then they announced the winner, and I won. Yeah because I had no idea what anyone else had done. We had a group chat but that didn’t last more than a few months. But I didn’t know what anyone else was doing so it was quite a surprise. Yeah and like being invited to things with Stonewall and stuff is really cool. Like the other week, it was really weird, the other week I was invited down to…there was a Pride reception, at 10 Downing Street [Laughing] and Stonewall needed 30 representatives to go, and they were like “off you go”. So, yeah it was really cool, I went and erm, and we all just kind of mulled out in the garden in the back of 10 Downing Street. It was really…it was very surreal, but it was a lot of fun. 

Int.: What’s that like? Give us the goss’. 

Ben: Yeah it was just really cool. There was loads of people there who are kind of like—who you recognise and then you realise who they are and you’re like, that’s really strange, like I’m in the same place as them. Like Ruth Hunt was there, erm like the Stonewall CEO person. Yeah there was quite a lot of people there. It was really cool. 

Int.: That is really cool. So, did you have an interest in film photography before this?

Ben: Yeah for quite a few years. Erm, since like year 9 actually, since like the same sort of time that I realised I was trans. It was more—it used to be more photography and then in the last kind of couple of years, maybe two years, I’ve kind of enjoyed film more. I always used to do loads of photography and like group kind of helped with that to be fair because erm, I did the pride photos for them for a couple of years, well like the last few years. 

Int.: Cool, are you doing them this year? 

Ben: Yeah. 

Int.: Nice. So how many prides have you been to? 

Ben: Erm…three? Yeah, I think three. No, four. Yeah four. 

Int. What was the first pride like? 

Ben: It was so good, yeah. That was the best one. Definitely. 

Int.: Was it because it was your first experience?

Ben: Yeah, well ‘cause I’d never—what’s really weird is I’d never seen Pride before, so like I’d never just been in Liverpool and like “oh Pride’s on today”. Like I never realised. Like, I literally never seen it before. Which was kind of strange. It was just kind of that overwhelming sense of…people noticing and being visible and when you’re in the parade—because we joined the parade and didn’t realise we weren’t meant to join the parade [Laughing]. We joined and then there’s all the people that were along the pavements and you kind off…it’s such a nice feeling because you’re like—you never realise on your day to day life that these people are supportive and then they show up with a flag and it’s great. 

Int.: How would you like to see Liverpool change or improve, if you think there needs to be any changes or improvement, in terms of like the…being more supportive of the LGBTQ+ community. 

Ben: Erm, I don’t really know. 

Int.: It’s quite a big question. Quite a weighty question. 

Ben: I feel like there probably is quite a bit but I can’t think of any. Yeah, I don’t know. Maybe having more stuff. Like how during Pride season there’s always like stickers on windows and like things up and then they disappear as soon as Pride season’s over. Kind of like having that throughout the year maybe. Like every so often I’ve seen those, you know those signs at bus stops, they’ve had loads recently that were like hate crime ones, and they were good to have, and then they all disappeared. But like that kind of thing that’s like inclusive of LGBT, like all of LGBT. I think that’s one thing. 

Int.: Yeah ‘cause it’s nice to see that like—it just makes you feel a little bit safer, like seeing a little flag or seeing like a poster about hate crime and stuff. 

Ben: Especially if they include, like I find anyway, a lot of the time even if there is something that has—that’s related to LGBT stuff, when it has like all the other things and then it has sexuality on the end of it, a lot of the times genders missed off, transgender is missed off. But on those hate crime posters they had gender identity as well and it’s like a tiny, tiny thing, but it makes such a difference. 

Int.: Yeah for sure, 'cause it's not y’know…it’s kind of, a lot of things are aimed at LG and then they just kind of stop for the rest of the acronym and it’s like c’mon. There’s a reason there’s all these letters here. 

Ben: Yeah exactly. It just kind of makes a bit of a difference, because it's like oh they didn’t forget, yeah, it’s quite nice. 

Int.: Have you been to any of the TDOV or TDOR events? 

Ben: Yeah I went to the…TDOV, yeah TDOV one the last couple of years. I actually did a presentation at the last one—this year.

Int.: I can remember actually, yeah. 

Ben: I haven’t been to the Trans Day of Remembrance ones, but I’ve been to the visibility ones. 

Int.: What’s that like? Tell us about them. 

Ben: There’s a lot of different people there as well like, there’s a lot of different ages which is quite nice, because you’re all just put in one space. Yeah, it’s good. 

Int.: What was your presentation on? 

Ben: It was on the film. That was scary [Laughing] yeah that was scary. It felt like a lot of people. But that was the other thing with group is that, ‘cause group asked me to do it, and when I first started going to group three or four years ago, I literally I didn’t talk to anyone for like 4 months and then I find it really weird to look back at that having now done a presentation in front of however many people…it’s quite like a nice journey, that group has played a part in. 

Int.: You’ve come out your shell. 

Ben: Yeah exactly. 

Int.: As a 17-year-old do you feel like there’s enough queer spaces? 

Ben: No. No, the only one, the only specific one is like, group. Yeah, the only other spaces would be like over 18 spaces. Yeah, no there isn’t. There isn’t really that many. There’s a couple but it stops there. It would be quite nice if there was some more.

Int.: It’s good that at this year at Pride there’s going to be the youth space. 

Ben: Yeah, a Youth-Zone. 

Int.: I think, it would be good to have more of that throughout the year. Even just like, an odd event every month. 

Ben: That’d be quite nice. Yeah ‘cause it’s kind of—you wouldn’t have to wait until Pride and, save it all up into one year. 

Int.: What are your favourite things about being a part of the LGBTQ+ community? If you’ve ever thought about it. And if not, now’s your time to think [Laughing]. 

Ben: Erm, I don’t know, I think…what, like specifically in Liverpool?  

Int.: In Liverpool, or as a whole, either way.

Ben: Erm…don’t really know, I think it’s just kind of, it’s just kind of quite welcoming. Yeah, it’s just quite friendly, and there’s a lot more people than what you realise there is as well. Yeah, it’s just quite nice.

Int.: Is there anything that you dislike? 

Ben: I think the fact that, depending on which part of the City Centre you go to, the atmosphere changes a lot. Like even if you go to Bold Street and it’s like, all’s great, then you walk to the opposite side of Central Station, up that way and yeah that feels less safe—like, it doesn’t feel unsafe, but it feels less safe. You have to still be careful a lot with how you show your identity depending on which part of the City Centre you go too. Like when me and friends after Pride would go round Liverpool, we’d always feel like a lot more vulnerable in that part of Liverpool. It kind of varies, depending on which part which kind of isn’t ideal. 

Int.: Is there anywhere you tend to avoid walking? 

Ben: I feel like there probably is. Probably not consciously but I feel like there probably is places, like up there [gestures], up by all those erm, those like bars up there, by Central. 

Int.: It’s weird that it’s like on the way to GYRO. 

Ben: Yeah, exactly yeah. Like when you’re walking back from group after Pride, because that’s where the space used to be and then you’d be a bit like “ahh” and sort of walk in a big group. Yeah it was always kind of strange. 

Int.: Have you ever had any like bad experiences with the public not being great? 

Ben: Erm, like, well it’s not actually in Liverpool, I was in Chester, and me and my ex boyfriend were there, and we’ve like had things shouted at us from cars and stuff whenever we’ve just been standing there holding hands just waiting to cross a road. And like, actually in Liverpool as well like I know that friends have been harassed and stuff by people…and like intimated and things. I think I’ve seen things happen to other people when I’ve just been walking down the street and I’ve seen something happen to someone, I’ve kind of clocked that that’s probably what’s happening. Yeah, that does still happen, definitely. Just not personally, yet.  

Int.: It’s sad that you put yet at the end of there like you’re expecting it. 

Ben: Yeah definitely.  

Int.: Which isn’t nice at all. 

Ben: No it’s not but, I feel like It probably will at some point. Yeah, just hopefully it won’t. 

Int.: Especially as a young person, that’s not fair, you shouldn’t always feel like there’s not going to be…you should be like “yeah no, I’ll just be sound, and that’s fine”. 

Ben: I always feel like, I always feel very worried going into the public toilets, because that scares me a lot. Like I’ll try and avoid it as much as possible. Just ‘cause…I always feel like something’s going to happen there. People have kind of given me horrible looks and stuff, just from walking in there. You do feel a bit kind of, vulnerable. Like I always try and go in with someone else. I mean like, I’ll have to go in by myself but if I’m with friends, I’ll always try and avoid it if I’m by myself, but if I’m with friends then I won’t as much. It just feels a bit safer. 

Int.: That’s really rubbish. So like how do you feel about the development of the LGBTQIA+ community and identities? How do you feel about labels in general? There’s no wrong answer to this. Everyone’s got their own opinion. 

Ben: What do you mean? 

Int.: So, y’know, people identifying as queer, or as gay, trans, non-binary, gender fluid. Some people will have a lot of labels to their identity, others will maybe stick to one, others won’t go with anything… 

Ben: Erm, I don’t know I think it kind of depends on the person. Like I never used to identify as queer until literally like a week ago. Erm, and then I had a realisation and was like I’m fine with that now. But yeah, I think it just kind of it depends on the person. And like, if people want to have loads of labels then go for it, but if people are like “oh, no I don’t like labels” then that's like, okay go for it. 

Int.: It’s just what people comfortable with isn’t it? 

Ben: Yeah exactly, and it can change as well, definitely. Like some of my friends were certain that they were lesbians and stuff, and then have recently been like, “oh actually, I think I’m bi”. It’s like, okay great, you don’t have an identity and stick with it for the rest of your life. It can change and it doesn’t mean that your identity that you used to have is any less valid. 

Int.: I think it’s nice that like, as well, because all these identities have existed throughout time and everything, but we’re just—language is changing and we’re finding better ways to talk about ourselves and to describe ourselves. I think it can be quite nice when y’know, we find a new way to describe a certain identity, and someone can look at it and be like “everything makes sense, everything’s clicked now”. 

Ben: Yeah, like it just fits. 

Int.: So, what was like the…what about Queer was it that you were like, actually no, that’s where I’m heading at the minute now.

Ben: I identified as like gay for ages, like since I realised I was trans and then, I’d be like that’s what I am. And then for quite a while..yeah for like quite a while I’d be thinking like oh actually no, I don’t think I’m just gay but then I was like well no that’s my identity so I’ll stick with that. I was kind of suppressing being more queer. I was like, this is ridiculous, why am I doing this?. Yeah and then I just had a realisation like actually no, that’s fine, I can change my identity, and it doesn’t make it less valid. It’s fine. 

Int.: For sure. I think it’s good as well especially with young people, ‘cause I think that can be sometimes a negative thing with labels as people feel they have to be a certain way for it. But I think, especially the younger generation now, you’re breaking those barriers and being like, well no, there’s no one way to be this label, and also it’s all a sliding scale. 

Ben: Yeah exactly, when I first realised I was trans, I was like okay, now I’m like, a man, and I was like—I’m gonna dress in like the most masculine way and that was like, if I’d been born cis that’s not how I would have dressed and acted and everything. It took me quite a while to realise that I didn’t have to…be like a stereotypical hyper masculine person. But it didn’t mean that I was any less trans. And now I wear cropped trousers and It’s great.

Int.: Cropped trousers are great, get that breeze on your ankles. Show your socks off [Laughing]. 

Ben: Exactly, it just took a while. Because you do feel like you have to kind of…it’s weird ‘cause you kind of get out of one box and you’re like “okay now I fit in this box” and it’s like, it’s so strange. 

Int.: Yeah it is very bizarre. So, how do you think the public perception of like queer people and the queer community has either changed since you’ve come out, or stayed the same or, just what do you think of it in general? 

Ben: I don’t really know because I think I’ve only really become aware of it in the last like couple of years, properly. Especially the last year. Yeah I dunno, it seems kind of…it seems kind of negative. Especially, about trans people. It kind of in a way seems like what it is now for trans people is what it was like for gay people in the 80’s and 90’s whatever. It’s quite weird, because people think that like “oh, LGBT people…you can get married, you’re fine, off you go” but there’s a lot more to it and yeah, it kind of doesn’t feel like it’s equal within…like, for everybody within the LGBT community and I think people kind of have a strange perception of the fact that we’re not actually fully equal. The media’s just…urgh [Laughing], it’s just not good. It really stresses me out when like, in the media at the moment there’s like a lot of debate around trans identities, and it’s like…don’t do that. You can debate how you think money for gender reassignment surgery should be distributed or whatever, but don’t debate someone’s identity. There’s a line and it’s just disgusting to debate. It really stresses me out. 

Int.: How does it make you feel, seeing that sort of stuff as a young trans person just trying to live your life? 

Ben: It doesn’t make me feel very hopeful for the future to be honest, because it’s like well…I’ve gotta live through that. I’ve gotta…you kind of feel a bit of a responsibility to kind of…you’ve gotta educate people and you’ve gotta be like a good example of a trans person. It’s so stupid. It does kind of feel like, “well okay that’s my life, and I’m just going to have to deal with those things that people say”. It’s kind of strange. It’s not a very hopeful outlook, but at the same time you see—you do see slight things changing.

Int.: Is that a reason that you wanted to make your film? 

Ben: Yeah, I think so, yeah. I’ve felt like I kind of [Laughing] it sounds really cheesy but like, after leaving school, because I left there about a year or so ago, I kind of felt like if I didn’t do anything then they kind of…succeeded, they got what they wanted. I wanted to make something good out of a really horrible situation. And especially because it was happening for so many people and it still is. If you don’t do anything then noting is going to change. 

Int.: It’ good as well though because I feel like, with a lot of the “gender debate” and everything, very rarely do they actually speak to trans people, or trans young people. As well there’s been a lot of documentaries on various television channels, where they’ll debate trans young people and not speak to a single trans young person. They’ll maybe speak to parents or something, how can you do that? 

Ben: Yeah, it’s like you can’t debate something that you don’t know anything about or you haven’t experienced. ’Cause it’s very different when you have experienced it or you know someone who has, because you look at it completely differently. Yeah it’s so important, you can’t make a rule about someone, like make a law about someone without talking to that person and being like, would this be alright? That’s not how it works. 

Int.: And that’s why your film is very, very important.  And it’s brilliantly done, because it’s actual trans voices and its truth, and it’s the facts, and it’s what’s actually happening and not just all these weird statistics that you don’t know where people have pulled them from or anything. It’s real people’s lives. Cool so, to wrap up, if you had one message to your younger self, or the younger LGBT community now, what would that be? 

Ben: I think if it’s to my younger self…it would just be that like, I dunno, it sounds really cheesy but it doesn’t…school won’t last forever, like three years, I hated school for five years, but like, for those three years that I was like “oh I’m trans”, those three years felt like such a long time. Even though people were saying “you’ve only got two years” or “you’ve only got one year”, that’s still a long time, and it felt like a long time. And just the fact that it would end, because it didn’t feel like it would. It didn’t feel like I’d make it off there either to be fair. GYRO helped a lot with that. Yeah just that it’s worth sticking out, and it does improve, eventually. It might take a while, but it does. 

Int.: Well you’re on the other side of it now, and you’re making differences, you’re making changes. 

Ben: And I love college now. I’ve never missed being in education. It’s the summer holidays now, and I miss college. It’s such a weird experience, because I never missed being in school or whatever. 

Int.: I guess it’s because you can just be, Ben. And that’s that. 

Ben: You are your other characteristics, you’re not just like trying to prove something. Yeah, it’s nice.