Int.: So, we’ll just start with where you were born and where you grew up.

Ciarán: Cool, so I was born in a small town in the North East Coast of Ireland called Drogheda. It’s kind of like a post-industrial town with not much going on when I was a kid, we’d just hang around on the steps of a church being grumpy goth and hippy rejects, as you do. It’s quite trendy now, which is weird, because we remember it so well as a shithole.

Int.: So, when did you start to realise that you were gay?

Ciarán: I think I always knew, but I think in our house, it’s not that it wasn’t talked about it’s just that my parents didn’t have time to talk about it. We were born in the middle of a recession in the late eighties in Ireland, so my parents were busy working and putting food on the table. And, they were always quite open and accepting because they were quite honest with who they were, in terms of like, “Yeah we like smoke the odd bit of weed or have a drink on the weekend, we’re rockers and we rebelled against our parents when we were young so, we’re not going to pretend that we’re anything better. So, you just do what you want to do, get on with it, as long as you’re safe and responsible, and don’t cause damage or anything it’s fine”.

I didn’t have the language to express it until I was like maybe a teenager and was starting to experiment, so, it was more of a self-led thing than there being any role models. The closest we had in terms of role-models were probably Carry On movies – that will make me sound like someone from an older generation, but I think Ireland is only now moving out of that repressiveness I grew up in. It’s always felt, maybe like 10 years behind other countries. Exploring our sexual identities felt like blind man’s bluff, trying to find our way in the dark. But our group of friends were really quite open. We had a bit of a rag tag group made up of people from lots of other groups, it was very Breakfast Club with lots of different “tribes”. We were quite open about sex and relationship, though we never really felt the need to talk about that, it was just quite natural to just be really queer about it all. We had a sandpit almost, this freedom to get on with it.

Int.: Yeah that’s really cool. So, with that, did you feel like you never really needed to come out? Or did you come out?

Ciarán: No, I definitely came out, I definitely made the moment because I love a little bit of drama, don’t I? [laughs] I think I came out to my friends first and they were like “Yeah we know”, and I was like “Yeah ok, I know too but let’s just mark it, today is the day I say it”.

Int.: Here’s my coming out day.

Ciarán: Yeah, here’s the moment.

Int.: From now on, it’s an anniversary.

Ciarán: And then I think I came out to my parents a couple of years later and that was a bit - well obviously that was quite stressful and anxiety inducing but they were just like, “Yeah we know, it’s not an issue, don’t worry about it as long as you’re happy and safe”. I think it was a lot of internal build up rather than there actually being something to worry about. Then I just let it be, like I didn’t particularly tell people in my extended family or people at school but I didn’t not tell them either so it was like when I brought my partner home, it was just like Oh okay, If that’s the first time they found out, that’s the first time they found out. It’s not my business to trigger warning my identity to other people, I don’t really care, get on with it.

Int.: Were there any sort of instances where you felt like you needed to be in the closet? and not out at all or was it always sort of a…

Ciarán: Probably school. I was probably perceived as a good student, like I always wanted to do well and I wanted to impress my teachers, though I feel like I was quite . Like I was pretty much not mentally present for most of my school years and I was pushing against the fact the my Granda was the vice principal for 25 years before I went there, so I was always “Little Gregory” when I was at that age when you’re so desperate to define your own identity. I felt the need to rebel against that idea of people thinking they knew me. I love my Grandad, but I’m not him and the teachers I had, I felt, very outdated references and models. In our maths class for example, we were numbers, we weren’t names we were called by a number. I couldn’t see the point, it felt very oppressive to me. Same with the idea of there being such a strict curriculum, - I just didn’t like it, it wasn’t a very welcoming environment from an authority point of view. Then guys from my classes were really mixed; some very well-behaved more middle class lads, mixed with guys caught in lots of trouble. So, I’d be good at English say, but might’ve been a bit rough from a late night and the good guys in that class, I always felt looked down their noses at me. Wheras I’d be terrible at maths, and be in with a different group of students and be absolutely terrified of those other guys, those dangerous guys with a habit for violence.

So, I kind of never – I didn’t come out, but I think everyone just knew…and yeah, I got shit for it, but everyone got shit for something at that place; you were too tall, you were too fat, you were ginger, you were this, you were that and I was just quite – I took it but I didn’t give it back, it didn’t really bother me because I knew everyone was getting bullied for something it doesn’t really matter what it is.

It was funny, later in our Transition Year (an optional extra-curricular year) – this mix of lads became one form group and they really got on, and then by the end of school those same lads who were bullying me would stand up for me, saying “If anyone calls you a faggot, I’ll kill them” and I’m like “Well you’ve been doing it for six years; you don’t get to be the stick and the carrot. That’s not how this works”.

I just felt I had a little bit more of a relationship with the rougher lads who were a bit more intimidating and I could just be like “Well, you’ve been doing it, and you’ve been doing it to others kids in our school, so it’s all about you – your attitude changing”. I just didn’t care what anybody thought, I wish I had that resilience and stubbornness now. I didn’t care what teachers thought about me, I didn’t care what the other guys thought about me I just wanted to get on with it. I always just wanted to be out of school, and this sounds really sad, but I just wanted to be an adult and do my own thing and not have someone tell me what to do. There was this standard level of bullying, but it became quite interesting because I felt like almost doing that transition year, that fourth year, that it was going behind the scenes and having this council with the people who were being the bullies and being like “That’s not okay, you can’t do that” and I could say that because they were my mates, and they were trying to defend me, and I’m like “Well if you want to defend me, then you have to change because your attitude’s are wrong and you’ve been doing this for so many years”, and they were like “Oh shit okay”. So, that was an interesting experience.

Int.: So, did they change?

Ciarán: They probably tried to but for them I think it was an individual basis. Because I know another young lad who was probably coming into the senior cycle in school when I was leaving, and he was really effeminate and very unashamed about it, which in a Christian brothers school in Drogheda was not okay then. I’m okay, I’m maybe a little bit less camp than he is, and I’m probably just a little bit more stubborn and I don’t like the whole “straight acting” thing, but I think I adhered to a more “heteronormative” ideal then this other guys. So with him, they probably changed their attitude towards me, but I don’t think they changed on the systematic level to anybody else, they probably just view that as the default. But I’m okay, I pass, I go under their radar because I’m not sashaying down the street, which is shit and it shouldn’t be like that but I think it was just every man for himself a little bit in that environment.

Int.: So, did you have any spaces growing up that you felt were safe spaces where you could be yourself, or even like any queer spaces?

Ciarán: No queer spaces – definitely not. The word queer was - [laughs] I just remembered this… so if I wasn’t being bullied for being fat, I was being bullied for being queer and very inventively my name, somewhat, rhymes with queer. So, you might have “Queerán”, [laughs] So I was called that for a few years, and I only now that I’m realising that now that we’re using it for our own – as a community and that’s interesting.

Int.: I used to get called ‘Kay the Gay’, and I used to hate it, but now I’m like, “Yeah, Kay the Gay, I am”.

Ciarán: I just like the genuine inventiveness of the name ‘Queerán’. “That took some actual thinking! I’ll shake your hand on that.” No, but there were no queer spaces. There were maybe safe spaces in terms of like, a particular teacher’s class. Home was definitely a safe space, but it wasn’t - because I wasn’t really out, it wasn’t the most open space until I did come out, if that makes sense? My friends, safe space definitely, but we were all just trying to find our way through it, so it wasn’t exactly the most stable, because we were all in the same boat and it’s not like we have a mentor or a space to go in and hand the reigns to somebody else and go “I need help” or like “Yeah this is what I need to do”. We are all just finding our own way, rather than there being some sort of generation before us that could help us through, which was interesting. It kind of was not particularly difficult, but not particularly as liberal perhaps as young queer people growing up now. Which sounds really bitter and I don’t mean to be, but I just mean like it was kind of neither hot, neither cold, it was just get on with it, just do what you want to do.

Int.: So, when was your first experience of a queer place?

Ciarán: Saving up all our pocket money and getting the bus to Dublin to sneak into the only gay bar that we knew existed in the whole world, The George. It’s an iconic place now. We would get drunk on the bus on a little bottle of vodka, and absolutely shit ourselves trying to get into this place because we were 16/17. We were really quite young to be travelling all that way up on our own. Getting really drunk on whatever the hell we could afford. And it’s interesting now - I used to work in Canal Street, which is like a delicatessen of whatever you’re into, if you can imagine all that variety that all in one small building. You had this group over here, that group over there, and we were a whole separate group. We were the cultchies because we were not from Dublin, like, we’re from the biggest town in Ireland, of course someone from Drogheda would say that. It’s a really big urban place but because we’re next to Dublin, it’s a bit like being from the Wirral over here – that same “not from here” bullshit.

Int.: Oh yep [laughs]

Ciarán: It’s a bit like the same kind of attitude. “Oh, you’re from the over there”.

Int.: You’re Ireland’s version of a wool?

Ciarán: Yeah [laughs]. We didn’t really get much credibility or stock with the Dublin crowd because they were all very good looking and thin and fashionable and cool and a bit snobby if I’m honest. But we were just having fun, going out and finding some stranger to kiss and grope in the corner. But we always had to get the bus home, so we could never particularly go home with someone or even have that much time, because we’d be so scared that we’d lose someone, so we were almost like this singular unit, walking around this night club. I think our parents knew what we were doing even though we were saying we were staying over with different friends.

Int.: What did it feel like?

Ciarán: Terrifying. [laughs]. Absolutely terrifying, you feel like you’re on show. You don’t feel particularly safe because all that sex that we were talking about doing is in front of us and it was literally happening, there’s a guy upstairs, there’s a couple in the corner. Let’s just all be together, [laughs] don’t go in the toilet on your own kind of thing. It was like baptism of fire almost. I think I resisted it a little bit but just went along with it because it is fun but I was just a bit like “Holy shit, what is happening? What is going on here?”. And just like getting that bus back was just like a nightmare. It stopped at every tiny little town and it took like two hours, and you’d dying for a piss, and everyone’s really drunk and you’re trying to like straight up because you’re back in the public sphere now and you don’t want to be like in glitter and whatever and crawling home at 6am, like “Oh god, I’ve got school tomorrow”.

Int.: Oh no! [laughs]

Ciarán: It was bad.

Int.: That is bad. So, when did you come over to Liverpool?

Ciarán: So I moved - I’ve been in the UK for like 7 or 8 years now and I’ve been in Liverpool for like 2 and a half.

Int.: So, what made you come over to the UK in the first place?

Ciarán: I came over to study. I wanted to do creative writing as a degree, I was determined to be a writer and I couldn’t find a course dedicated to it in Ireland which is really surprising. I don’t know if my detective research skills are just sub-par, but I genuinely was like ‘Oh well I have to stay in Ireland, I can’t travel, I can’t leave the country. That would be ridiculous, oh my god”. Even going to Dublin would have been – like living in Dublin would have been too far. It wasn’t happening and I was like “Well I can’t stay here and do this… and I want to do this” so, I just signed for the first course that I found which was like Manchester Metropolitan in the Cheshire campus. Moved over, literally flew over for the open day and was like “Yep, this is where I want to go” and it’s like the place no one wants to go. I think the place is actually shut down now. It’s not even like..

Int.: Wait…

Ciarán: Man. Met in Crewe?

Int.: I’m from really near Crewe.

Ciarán: Oh really!?

Int.: Yeah.

Ciarán: I lived in Crewe for nearly like six years. Of my own volition.

Int.: No way I’m from Alsager.

Ciarán: Are you? I love Alsager!

Int.: No way!

Ciarán: That’s like the nice part of Crewe.

Int.: That’s like – yeah well, it’s 20 minutes away from Crewe so…

Ciarán: That’s crazy. My old head of department used to live in the old post office by the station.

Int.: Yeah?

Ciarán: And we’ve been to like her house for parties and stuff, she’s amazing. I love Alsager.

Int.: We’ll have a chat about that later.

Ciarán: I spent six years at Crewe of my own volition. 3 years as a student and 3 years working there. And I leave it - and just for the record as soon as I leave Crewe, they shut it down, so clearly, I was the rock keeping it all together. I miss it, I genuinely miss it, I miss the community of students I had there, I miss the community of colleagues I had. I think it was time for me to leave, I’d seen like, my freshers leave, the freshers that we took under our wing, and then I saw their freshers leave, and I was like “I’m the Granddad, I need to leave”.

Int.: Was there…? Did you, have like have a queer community there at all?

Ciarán: Yeah…

Int.: I never did.

Ciarán: Yeah but, it was kindly of just mostly all students who were just sleeping with each other. I got with a guy really early on in first year and was just besotted with him but he was a bit of knob-head if I’m completely honest. And then I got with my partner who I’m with now, the start of second year, so I didn’t really have like a queer dating scene, I didn’t really want it, I was just kind of excited to meet new people that I’ve never met before and they’re mostly my mates rather than people I want to sleep with or get involved with. So that was like my community rather than –which was different from what I’d seen in Dublin where we were going out specifically to pull and have that like bubbly fizzy experience, that excitement. Whereas, these are just friends and people in the community who you don’t particularly want to sleep with, but that’s not the environment here, you’re here to work as well. So that was quite interesting, going from it all being about one particular thing to these are just mates of yours, that was quite nice. And y’know there was like LGBT societies and stuff, so that was good.

Int.: Cool. So, when did you leave Crewe then?

Ciarán: I left Crewe [town B name] to come to Liverpool. I did a degree in Crewe and moved to Manchester for about 6 - 9months. Got a job back at the University and moved to back to Crewe and was there for about 2 and a half, 3 years, and then moved to Liverpool in February 2017. So, yeah…Crewe - Liverpool [laughs].

Int.: That’s the same thing that I’ve done.

Ciarán: It’s an interesting journey, isn’t it?

Int.: Yeah, it’s so bizarre. I still can’t get over that you lived in Crewe voluntarily. So, what is the queer scene like for you in Liverpool.

Ciarán: I think it’s great. Like I’ve got some friends and we just hang out, go to the cinema, go dancing, eat together. Most of them are in relationships now and then some of them have been and haven’t been. So that was fun, going out and being their wingmen and like - because I wouldn’t go out and clubbing, I’m not really a big clubber. I’ve spent so long working in bars that I don’t want to be in them or spend my money in them all the time. I feel like there’s a maybe a group of queer mafia out there who are the centre of the Liverpool queer scene, but I’m not that bothered to be there. Not that I don’t want to be involved in the queer scene, but I’ve got quite limited time and don’t feel the need to know everything everyone’s doing. I think people probably think I’m a bit of an asshole. 

Int.: [laughs] I’ve just got a cut off point for how many friends I want, and I’ve hit it now, so…

Ciarán: Yeah, a little bit. Well I’m being brutal but, I’m like “Great you’re lovely doing your thing over there, I’m doing my thing over here”. No shade, no nastiness I’m just like “I don’t really see the need for us to be friends”. I’m not going to dislike you, I don’t think you’re a bad person but it’s just like, “You’ve got your thing. I’ve got mine”. But there does seem to be a bit of a magnet zone of “We must be here doing this; we must be here doing that” and it’s like do what you want rather than following someone else’s. Maybe that’s what it’s all about – it’s about having autonomy over your own social group and your own life, more so than these particular people.

Int.: Yeah, so what are the major differences in the queer scenes between, where you’ve grew up, Dublin and Crewe? [laughs]

Ciarán: Yeah, I think…Hmm it’s interesting… I think it’s a little bit more. So, in Manchester it’s just everywhere, it’s really quite like, under the surface of everything. I think Liverpool is a little bit more hidden. Even like the idea that Canal Street is very public and then it’s almost like a strip, that’s kind of - you can almost draw a line around it. Liverpool’s quite different because it tends to be on the backstreets that are like the ones with little rainbow things in the corner and that for me, it is interesting why haven’t they filled into Dale Street yet, or Tithebarn Street in a more public way, and they don’t necessarily have gay written on them, whereas Canal Street definitely does.

Int.: G.A.Y. on the corner.

Ciarán: Yeah quite literally, or just like really unapologetically, like I used to work in the musical theatre cocktail bar, which is like the gayest thing on planet Earth, and then around the corner there’s a sauna and then there’s a drag show, and it’s really quite overtly queer. Whereas in Liverpool you can walk into James Monroe without knowing where you are unless there’s karaoke night. You could walk into The Lisbon without really knowing and that’s interesting. Is it just a ‘Not bothered’ thing? Is it just like ‘We’re just who we are’, we don’t feel that need to attach ourselves too these labels? Which is probably the case, because I think Scouser’s are pretty confident in their identities or is it erm…something else a bit more sinister? I don’t think so but it might look a little but like “Oh is it not okay here?’. When you first arrive, you’re like “Oh it seems a bit hidden” and then Pride happens and It’s amazing and it’s huge [pause] but I have a problem with what Pride’s becoming in general. Not just Liverpool Pride at all, I think Liverpool Pride’s actually retained a lot of that authenticity. But I’m like “Where’s the protests? Where’s the queer community? Where’s the queer artists to be paid to be on that stage? And why are we paying y’know, white middle class ex pop-stars to come be on stages and stuff like that?” And again, it’s me being really critical but that happens across the board everywhere and I suppose you have to get that, you have to get the money in, so that’s fair enough. But in terms of, the difference, yeah I think it’s got more spirit in the people, but the presence out on the street doesn’t look quite the same as it does out in Manchester but, it’s probably closer to Dublin in that sense. Dublin doesn’t really have a gay ghetto so to speak, it’s got The George and there’s some places popping up around it, and obviously Ireland’s attitude to queer people has changed a lot recently. I think it has a lot more acceptance. So, I think that probably reflects that a little bit more in terms of, its more about the community of individuals and that works, rather than just the spaces in which they hold, because they’ll just take up spaces wherever they need to. It’s not about there being a building or a street or a strip. It’s just about the people who are functioning in those spaces. So, it’s quite interesting in that sense. I’m quite outside that, in that I only see the big stuff, in terms of I’m not going out and I’m not kind of engaging in that kind of community but, you see organisations like yourselves or WOW [Writing on the Wall] and other places and - there’s always a strand. Always a dedicated strand to the Queer community within it, no matter what…and it can be really odd stuff where you wouldn’t expect it to be, and you’re like “Oh god why is that like – why has that happened”? You just think “That’s quite cool”, it just pervades across all sectors. So yeah, I think it’s, like all Scouse things, I think it’s about the people, rather than the places.

Int.: Yeah, I like that. I’ve never thought of it like that. Is there any spaces that you feel particularly… like where you and your queer group of friends will like gravitate to, or feel the most visible?

Ciarán: Probably just like wandering round Dale Street at four o’clock in the morning trying to find a taxi home kind of thing [laughs]. If we’re going out, we’re probably going to somewhere like Superstar, and just, we’ll go to an absolutely crap bar, have a laugh, have a dance and go. That’s kind of what we’re up to, like we’re not going to – I don’t see Superstar as like a pulling bar, for me it’s like a silly dance - almost like a hen-do bar like just go for a laugh. So probably there because it feels like everyone’s there for the same reason, just have a dance, have a laugh, have some fun, have some drinks… and then just go and just leave instead of going to another bar or something like that. But I don’t know a lot of them, so I’m still kind of being led through them by my friends, so yeah probably Superstar just because it’s so bad it’s great. [laughs]

Int.: What about - is there any places you go where you don’t necessarily have to have a label on for being gay…

Ciarán: Yeah that’s what I was thinking about…

Int.: But you know that you gravitate towards all the time and it’s a safe environment that you feel...?

Ciarán: Yeah, I just love going to Egg café on a Saturday and writing and reading and just eating all the lovely food, and that feels really` comfortable and I go there quite a bit. Central library is quite nice, I quite like just going there for a chill. Erm… I live up in Wavertree, so like the Mystery Park is nice just to sit and relax. Erm… I suppose I’m using the spaces more for functionality more than anything else. I go the cinema quite a lot. The theatres quite a lot. I’m always dotting around. Yeah, if I’m in town and I’ve got stuff to do in town, I’ll just pop into Egg and get something, It’s like I have to mark the day if I’m going into town, I have to go the Egg and get something to eat, because it’s good food and cheap. So yeah, it would probably be the Egg.

Int.: So, is there anything you’d like to see Liverpool change and improve in the future?

Ciarán: In general, or…?

Int.: With regards to…

Ciarán: The Queer community?

Int.: Queerness, yeah.

Ciarán: Just more of it and bring back that history of pride. I think Liverpool is the right place to do that. Hugely political city, hugely radical city. I think y’know, flip the script on it being a white cis-gendered community and put people of colour, trans people, disabled people, refugees and asylum seekers at the forefront of it. As is Liverpool’s modus operandi of putting vulnerable people to feel seen, getting them heard and making them feel welcome, making them feel a part of the community. I think that needs to be more - because that’s a problem systemic within the queer community one hundred per cent, we all know that, and I think if anyone can do it right, it’s Liverpool because that’s just the attitude here, everyone mucks in, everyone gets together, everyone’s equal and if that’s not your attitude you’re not scouse. That’s just my understanding of it. So, I do think if anywhere can do it, it’s Liverpool.

Int.: For sure. That leads on quite nice actually to my next question, which was, do you think the community needs to improve and change?

Ciarán: Yeah, yeah absolutely. I think there’s become – I think there’s been a huge shift in the last couple of years, where the sort of heteronormative society has finally understood what LGBT means and the flood gates have opened because once they understand it they can market to it. I’m not opposed to there being queer products to buy but I’m a maybe little bit more opposed to capitalism in that sense. I wouldn’t call, myself particularly anti-capitalist, but I think when you see it intrude on a space like that … it’s just like “Ok where’s that money going. Is it really supporting the queer community?” So, I think it needs to be better in supporting itself in terms of [pause] maybe not just falling into that model, that might be more difficult to get it up in bigger cities. I think Liverpool’s the right size to be able to take care of itself well enough. And I do think that capitalist or corporate bodies investing or being a part of it is fine, because well, better that they get the money than, I don’t know, oil traders or something like that, but it’s about this idea of being marketed to and then just falling into a sort of… negative pattern of like – or almost be seen to be and it’s actually more about principle than it is about article. So, like a principal is like a pillar of strength that can express itself differently in many different contexts, it might be, for example, feminist to do something in one context and to do the complete opposite thing in different context, but for it to still be a feminist thing. For example, in terms of like what you wear, it might be feminist to wear something revealing in one context, and to reverse and be conservative in another and it all depends on the context because the principle although itself doesn’t change, it changes how it’s expressed through the different contexts. Whereas article, is just like something, I think, like a thing that you can pick up. It’s the action rather than the intention behind it. I don’t even know if article is the right word, but the object, the thing, it’s about having the thing outside rather than about having the thing inside. I think that’s what I’m trying to get at, rather than it being about going into Primark and buying a load of rainbow flags and being clad in glitter, which is always fun! …thinking about what are we doing? What are our actions doing for the community? And only then can we celebrate, only then can we remind ourselves why we do this. I think it’s important to celebrate, but it’s important to remember and it’s important to keep that spirit of transgressive, radical politics alive, because It’s almost been - it’s been forgotten about a lot, I think, in the mainstream community. It’s not about just going out and clubbing or y’know – and I think there’s an interesting thing about a lot of my

references have been about clubbing and alcohol and I think that’s a huge thing where the only queer spaces a lot of young people, my age grew up, were in bars. And especially if you go back further, older than my generation, it was the only safe space they had because it was illegal. It was only decriminalised in ‘93 and I was alive for that and that’s crazy. So that idea of, we need to disentangle that club environment which was has become so systemic to what being queer and being gay is all about and have alternative versions of that. It doesn’t necessarily need to be dry, it doesn’t need to be an alcohol-free zone, but it does need to be less about… just that intoxication and more about the people. Something like Beers for Queers is a great example of that. It is not – it doesn’t feel like a club night, but you can go and have the same buzz and great vibe without putting a drink in your hand and have a so much better time because the vibe is completely different, they’ve curated that really well and really specifically. I just - things from different spaces that aren’t necessarily queer spaces, coming and lifting it up, and then the queer spaces stepping outside their own safety bubble and maybe working with other organisations they should be supporting; so, like anti-racist campaigns or refugee and asylum seeker charities like that and for all of it to be connected in a really meaningful way I think would be my thing, rather than it being about “Oh we have to do this thing, rather than we have to be a thing”. That’s just kind of an internal motivation, than an external one. I’d like to see that across the board, it’s not something that Liverpool has done that’s different, it’s just across the board that something needs to change, I think.

Int.: Yeah for sure. So, what things do you love about the community?

Ciarán: There’s no bullshit with anyone, I don’t think and if there is, it’s quickly called out and you’re just like “Well I’m not dealing with that, that’s nothing to do with me”. Everyone’s really friendly, it’s all very creative, and there’s lots of really radical, creative stuff happening around it. I do think the community is very supportive and I do think they have people’s backs, especially those less able to have their own back. I think people step in and kind of protect one another and keep each other safe, to the most extent. Yeah, I just think Liverpool’s radical political history lends itself well to the future of the queer community because y’know the first Liverpool Pride wasn’t exactly a celebration either, was it? There’s a lot of driving force behind just a general Liverpool history and awareness and the queer history of Liverpool, and I think that when you combine the two things like, really exciting great things can be done, so that’s just more energy to that.

Int.: So how do you feel about the development of the LGBTQIA community as an identity and the language that we use now?

Ciarán: I’m not sure yet, to be honest. I see the need for it and then I see it go, what I would say, too far sometimes and I haven’t really made up my mind. I don’t know if I ever will and maybe that’s important. I think I sort of some days love the word queer and others I dislike it, I’m still making my mind up. But that’s very queer in itself, to not be decided upon and to not be fixed. So, I kind of have a live and let live attitude on it, I’m kind of like, as long as you’re not harming anyone, does it really matter that much? Does your identity really matter that much? I think queer can be used almost against us. Friends of mine who have experienced stuff like being out and coming onto a younger chap and he was like “Oh I’m queer” but then when my friend went to kiss him he was like “Oh no I’m into girls” and he was like “Ok then, just let me get this straight, you were born cis, and you’re into girls, so you’re straight, you’re a cis straight man and you’re calling yourself queer?” How does that make you queer? But then does queer need to be defined by this? It’s all very much like “What is queer?” so, it all comes back to quite a difficult question to answer really. I think it’s just about how we - I think language is changing and how we use language is changing so, I’m kind of sitting on the sidelines interested and seeing what’s happening. Seeing some great models of practice and seeing some not so great models of practice, and just sort letting some people sort of get on with it but, always being respectful to those who… to whatever they wish to be identified as or whatever language they’re using, but maybe not necessarily always understanding it. In terms of like, that example of that young, cis, straight kid calling themselves queer and being like, I don’t really understand that but I don’t really need to go down your throat about it either because that’s just going to reflect badly on me. Maybe you have a reason but… interesting. Maybe that’s a disconnect from history perhaps. I think its definition defies definition, y’know it’s all about sitting opposite to something and even where it sits opposite too, is a subjective thing, it’s meant to sit opposite the mainstream. Well what is the mainstream? Cause queer’s looking fairly mainstream now. You look at anything on TV, y’know Netflix is just churning out the Ru Paul machine constantly, there’s so many spin offs, it’s like a multi-million-dollar industry now and it’s kind of like “Have we become mainstream?” Yeah, have we not because we’re also getting brutalised in countries across the world, so it’s like that double-edged sword where we’re almost being [pause] appropriated for our… culture, I suppose is the right word to use, but I don’t know if that feels like the right word but also we’re being demonised for our identities at the same time, so I think something needs to shift here. We can’t sit in the mainstream and be under its boot at the same time. So, I think the only way to get out of that is to struggle against it and in struggling against it, there’s going to be stuff that isn’t logical or make sense like this kid who’s calling himself queer and he isn’t, maybe that just needs to happen for all of us to get from under the rock of… whatever this is?

Int.: Yeah cool, well that again links in quite nicely to my next question which is how do you think public perception has changed in terms of like; queer icons and queer media?

Ciarán: Oh, I think we’re the hottest things since sliced bread. Like there’s a huge market behind it now. Which I don’t necessarily agree with and don’t necessarily think it’s right, in terms of commodifying a culture like that. It’s gonna happen regardless, so I can sit on my perch and complain but it’s gonna happen, but it’s just about the awareness of, ‘Oh yeah’ it’s great for you to praise these queer icons but real people are being quite brutalised across the world so, if you like that, you have to support that. That’s how it goes and that goes across all different types of communities which are being oppressed. So, it’s kind of like… especially from an outside non-queer perspective, it’s like the whole thing about if you come into our spaces, you’re a guest and you can outstay your welcome and it’s like if you want to enjoy our spaces, then you have to support them and that’s not buying the merchandise. That’s supporting the person who doesn’t have a voice, miles behind that person. I think it is kind of our responsibility to make people aware of that, to be like “Oh, did you know that you can support by signing this petition or coming on this march or helping us rally this thing or like whatever”. People lending their skills for whatever they can support best, if you want that you have to do this, and it should be the same across the board for people of colour, trans people, refugees and asylum seekers, disabled people. It should be like that across the board for anyone, if you want to use this culture, you have to support it and you have to protect it and defend it.

Int.: So, as a final, parting thought, what message would you give to your younger self, or the younger queer community?

Ciarán: Oh god! Ooohhhh.

Int.: Big one.

Ciarán: Yeah! To the younger queer community, it would be get out there and do something about it and I think that probably goes for a lot of the older community as well, and the middle community, I think we all need

different things, and it’s about sort of idea - a strategy for that. For my younger self, oh god… just get on with it. Stop thinking about it, just get on with it. You’ll get there eventually, you hope. Maybe that’s quite basic, but yeah, I don’t know I think it was just, probably what I’d say is just get out there, explore it and see what’s out there for you.